# Just When I Think I Like the Pope, He Pulls this Shit **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 6, 2022, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-i-think-i-like-the-pope-he-pulls-this-shit/957326 "2022-01-06T14:53:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2022, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-i-think-i-like-the-pope-he-pulls-this-shit/957326/222 "2022-01-12T20:47:38Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > It strikes me as inconsistent to like the Pope when he uses religion to push people to help the poor, but think it reprehensible that the Pope uses _the same_ religion to push people into having or adopting children. It’s the same set of beliefs underlying both speeches. The Pope is not a humanitarian, the welfare of human beings merely happens to overlap with his religion some of the time. I believe he has said explicitly that the Church is not a humanitarian organization. So if you only “like” the Pope when he acts like a humanitarian, or when you otherwise happen to find his actions agreeable, you never actually “liked” the Pope at all. Not at all. I can like some parts of a thing without liking the whole thing. I can like some parts of a _person_ without liking everything about them. There’s absolutely nothing “inconsistent” with liking the Pope when he advocates for the poor, but disliking him when he talks smack about people without kids. I can appreciate his advocacy on important issues without agreeing with the logic he uses to justify his support. I can set aside our philosophical differences when it comes to issues we both feel are important, and I can still highlight the flaws in his reasoning when he uses them to promote something I oppose. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2022, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-i-think-i-like-the-pope-he-pulls-this-shit/957326/223 "2022-01-12T21:02:14Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > There’s absolutely nothing “inconsistent” with liking the Pope when he advocates for the poor, but disliking him when he talks smack about people without kids. But he had the same motivation in both cases; it doesn’t seem to me you liked him as a person in either case, but rather that you like it when he agrees with you. It’s like when _any_ political figure happens to unexpectedly agree or disagree with you: you get to judge for yourself whether they are decent likeable people or whether you only like them for the act of agreeing with you politically. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2022, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-i-think-i-like-the-pope-he-pulls-this-shit/957326/224 "2022-01-12T21:24:28Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > But he had the same motivation in both cases… So what? > [@Max\_S](#): > > …it doesn’t seem to me you liked him as a person in either case, but rather that you like it when he agrees with you. Nobody in this thread knows the Pope “as a person.” We only know him as a spokesman for an international corporation. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2022, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-i-think-i-like-the-pope-he-pulls-this-shit/957326/225 "2022-01-12T21:36:46Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > So what? He spoke on St. Joseph and on fighting poverty with the same intention in both instances; putting aside negligence (which is not relevant here), a person is reprehensible for an act only on account of his or her intentions; therefore if he is a reprehensible person for making the speech on St. Joseph, he is a reprehensible person for making the speech on fighting poverty. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2022, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-i-think-i-like-the-pope-he-pulls-this-shit/957326/226 "2022-01-12T21:39:45Z")
If the Pope says, “Help the poor, because Jesus,” I can agree with him on the first part, but not the second. If he later says, “Screw the queers, because Jesus,” I can disagree with that entire statement. I’m not bound to stay silent on it because he previously said something I half-agree with. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2022, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-i-think-i-like-the-pope-he-pulls-this-shit/957326/227 "2022-01-12T21:40:47Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > I think it’s very funny that the church thinks “pastorship” counts as being a parent. Because a priest stays up all night comforting a kid with a stomach bug. Right. That could have happened, but would have been followed by the priest telling the kid that they could never talk about it because it was their secret. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2022, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-i-think-i-like-the-pope-he-pulls-this-shit/957326/228 "2022-01-12T21:43:30Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > If the Pope says, “Help the poor, because Jesus,” I can agree with him on the first part, but not the second. If he later says, “Screw the queers, because Jesus,” I can disagree with that entire statement. That kind of criticism is materially different than the one presented by the OP. You could have your own idea of what “because Jesus” means which agrees with the first case but not the second. The OP is an atheist and thus never agreed with a “because Jesus”, so she would have to disagree with _both_ statements. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2022, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-i-think-i-like-the-pope-he-pulls-this-shit/957326/229 "2022-01-12T22:03:59Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > The OP is an atheist and thus never agreed with a “because Jesus”, so she would have to disagree with _both_ statements. > [@Max\_S](#): > > That kind of criticism is materially different than the one presented by the OP. You could have your own idea of what “because Jesus” means which agrees with the first case but not the second. The OP is an atheist and thus never agreed with a “because Jesus”, so she would have to disagree with _both_ statements. No, it’s exactly the same criticism, from the same premises. Are you under the impression that I’m some flavor of Christian? I assure you, I’m every bit as much an atheist as the OP. Maybe athier. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2022, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-i-think-i-like-the-pope-he-pulls-this-shit/957326/230 "2022-01-12T22:15:41Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > It’s still not clear to me whether that is an accurate translation or not. Selfishness has a strong connotation in English but the original Italian _egoismo_ may mean “not-altruistic” or “rational self-interest”, eg: _egoism_ , which I think is not insulting. It has been translated as “egoism” before, for example on his General Address of November 3 (here it is officially [translated as selfishness](https://www.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/audiences/2021/documents/papa-francesco_20211103_udienza-generale.html), and here it is [officially translated as egoism](https://press.vatican.va/content/salastampa/en/bollettino/pubblico/2021/11/03/211103a.html) for the press release). If you are an atheist who doesn’t believe in altruism, it seems to me you would base your ethics on some form of egoism. In the most common usage in Italian and in the man’s native Spanish, “egoísmo” means self-centeredness, **not** “rational self interest”, and is **not** a positive-value signifier. Plus, what we may call “ethical non-altruism” (a-la Objectivism, among other philosophies) is generally _not_ in agreement with Catholic Church values anyway. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2022, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-i-think-i-like-the-pope-he-pulls-this-shit/957326/231 "2022-01-12T22:16:37Z")
I, too, see no inconsistency in liking some of the Pope’s statements and positions, and disliking others. I don’t really care why or how he reached those positions. He’s an incredibly influential person, and if he urges his flock to help the poor, or be more decent to homosexuals, I’m a fan. But when he urges his flock to guilt their childless friends or when he shuts down Catholic charities rather than let them place desperate children with gay couples, i can be angry. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2022, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-i-think-i-like-the-pope-he-pulls-this-shit/957326/232 "2022-01-12T22:33:12Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > _egoism_ , which I think is not insulting. I think calling somebody egotistic, in English, is generally meant to denigrate them. > [@Max\_S](#): > > If you are an atheist who doesn’t believe in altruism, it seems to me you would base your ethics on some form of egoism. Why would an atheist not believe in altruism? > [@Max\_S](#): > > > [@Miller](#): > > > > If the Pope says, “Help the poor, because Jesus,” I can agree with him on the first part, but not the second. If he later says, “Screw the queers, because Jesus,” I can disagree with that entire statement. > > That kind of criticism is materially different than the one presented by the OP. You could have your own idea of what “because Jesus” means which agrees with the first case but not the second. The OP is an atheist and thus never agreed with a “because Jesus”, so she would have to disagree with _both_ statements. No. They can still agree with the “help the poor” part. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2022, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-i-think-i-like-the-pope-he-pulls-this-shit/957326/233 "2022-01-12T23:40:58Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > No, it’s exactly the same criticism, from the same premises. Sorry, I misread your post. > [@Miller](#): > > If the Pope says, “Help the poor, because Jesus,” I can agree with him on the first part, but not the second. If he later says, “Screw the queers, because Jesus,” I can disagree with that entire statement. I’m not bound to stay silent on it because he previously said something I half-agree with. Wouldn’t you say any belief that entails prejudice against queers is reprehensible? 1. Any belief that entails prejudice against queers is a reprehensible belief And wouldn’t you say an action motivated by a reprehensible belief is reprehensible by association? 1. Any act motivated by a reprehensible belief is reprehensible Therefore, 1. Any act motivated by a belief that entails prejudice against queers is reprehensible So I would expect you to find both statements to be reprehensible. > [@JRDelirious](#): > > In the most common usage in Italian and in the man’s native Spanish, “egoísmo” means self-centeredness, **not** “rational self interest”, and is **not** a positive-value signifier. I’ll take your word for it and back down. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2022, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-i-think-i-like-the-pope-he-pulls-this-shit/957326/234 "2022-01-12T23:44:34Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > So I would expect you to find both statements to be reprehensible. So, because I object to the Catholic church opposing gay rights, I’m somehow obligated to also oppose them running soup kitchens? I have to figure that I’m misunderstanding your point on some level, because that’s just about the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2022, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-i-think-i-like-the-pope-he-pulls-this-shit/957326/235 "2022-01-12T23:56:25Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > So, because I object to the Catholic church opposing gay rights, I’m somehow obligated to also oppose them running soup kitchens? You don’t have to oppose them running soup kitchens in general, only running soup kitchens for reasons which entail opposition to gay rights. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2022, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-i-think-i-like-the-pope-he-pulls-this-shit/957326/236 "2022-01-13T00:04:39Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > You don’t have to oppose them running soup kitchens in general, only running soup kitchens for reasons which entail opposition to gay rights. I’m not sure what you’re trying to say here. If you mean that I should oppose the Catholic Church for running a soup kitchen that refuses to feed gay people, sure. If you’re saying I should oppose the Catholic Church for running a soup kitchen because they think Jesus wants them to run a soup kitchen, because they also think that Jesus doesn’t want gay people to get married, that’s back in the “stupidest thing I’ve ever heard” territory. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2022, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-i-think-i-like-the-pope-he-pulls-this-shit/957326/237 "2022-01-13T00:06:18Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > If you’re saying I should oppose the Catholic Church for running a soup kitchen because they think Jesus wants them to run a soup kitchen, because they also think that Jesus doesn’t want gay people to get married, that’s back in the “stupidest thing I’ve ever heard” territory. This one. ETA: I don’t claim to read your mind. From your point of view, why is the one act more wrong-headed than the other if they share the same motivation? ~Max ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2022, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-i-think-i-like-the-pope-he-pulls-this-shit/957326/238 "2022-01-13T00:19:47Z")
I’m not Miller, but the actual act matters more than the motivation behind it, IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2022, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-i-think-i-like-the-pope-he-pulls-this-shit/957326/239 "2022-01-13T00:20:59Z")
This is a pretty fascinating high-wire act, Max. It smacks of “kind hearted bigotry --” the stuff we’ve all heard _way_ too much of in our time (eg, “I’m not racist but I draw the line at interracial marriages”). I don’t particularly care about the Pope’s “motivation” (or rationalization, or excuse). I applaud the soup kitchens and loathe the bigotry. My favorite restaurant makes lousy French Onion Soup, but [wait for it] it’s still my favorite restaurant. It’s as though you’re trying to eliminate any semblance of nuance from people’s perspectives on PFrancis. Which seems weird. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2022, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-i-think-i-like-the-pope-he-pulls-this-shit/957326/240 "2022-01-13T00:24:53Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > ETA: I don’t claim to read your mind. From your point of view, why is the one act more wrong-headed than the other if they share the same motivation? Because feeding the hungry is a good thing, and oppressing gay people is a bad thing. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2022, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-i-think-i-like-the-pope-he-pulls-this-shit/957326/241 "2022-01-13T00:45:04Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > I’m not Miller, but the actual act matters more than the motivation behind it, IMHO. That’s probably the root of the disagreement, because unless there’s some kind of moral negligence, the _bad_ motivation matters more to me than the _good_ act. ~Max _edited to add the italicized words, after below reply_ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-i-think-i-like-the-pope-he-pulls-this-shit/957326.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-i-think-i-like-the-pope-he-pulls-this-shit/957326.md?page=13)