# Just when you think that people are decent... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 26, 2011, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-you-think-that-people-are-decent/594167 "2011-08-26T12:26:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2011, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-you-think-that-people-are-decent/594167/61 "2011-08-26T19:47:16Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Not all opinions are created equal. Of course, but not really relevant IMO. Everyone’s right to _have_ opinions, to be free to think and speak, is the same. > [@villa](#): > > Well, if you _read_ what I _wrote_, you’ll _see_ my _argument_ is that there isn’t such a fine distinction to be drawn. The purpose of the expression of racist sentiments is very often to create a climate of fear in their target group. Repaying that by teaching the scum what it is like to live in fear doesn’t strike me as a bad thing at all. I did read what you wrote; I just disagree with you. Because some racists intend to create a climate of fear, you wish to create a climate of fear for anyone you judge racist in response? Launching actual attacks on the basis of expressions of opinions? No. If you act on that, _you_ are the most immediate threat to decent society. > [@Sampiro](#): > > I have mixed opinions on the boycott. > … > I would never stop patronizing a place with an employee who drove a \*\*Palin 2012 \*\*bumper sticker so long as they still were courteous but I would definitely not patronize a place with the ReNig employee or that displayed homophobic merchandise. (I once had more than a hundred dollars of merchandise I was going to buy in a T-shirt shop in Atlanta and put it all back when I saw a T-shirt that read “Silly Faggots: Dicks are for Chicks”.) > > OTO-Other-H, if I were the owner of the business I would _want_ to know why I was losing customers. Well, the merchandise scenario should be clear; that’s the business itself. I would definitely not give that place my money, and I _would_ tell them why not–as an individual, face to face, which I think tends to be more impressive than a petition signature. Avoiding a business simply because you have reason to dislike one _employee_ strikes me as arbitrary and ineffective at best–all kinds of businesses that you give your money to employ all kinds of people. Some of them must be worse than this dude. > [@Sampiro](#): > > Personally I couldn’t care less what my employees’ political opinions are but I wouldn’t knowingly hire somebody who intentionally offends people- something for which there’s rarely if ever an excuse. Would you knowingly hire an anti-racist vigilante? ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2011, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-you-think-that-people-are-decent/594167/62 "2011-08-26T19:57:00Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > Of course, but not really relevant IMO. Everyone’s right to _have_ opinions, to be free to think and speak, is the same. From government interference, I completely agree. > [@Peremensoe](#): > > I did read what you wrote; I just disagree with you. Because some racists intend to create a climate of fear, you wish to create a climate of fear for anyone you judge racist in response? Launching actual attacks on the basis of expressions of opinions? No. If you act on that, _you_ are the most immediate threat to decent society. I’ll live with being a threat to what you view as decent society. And yes, I want that swastika wearing skinhead fuck to feel at least as much, if not more fear than that which he instills in the Pakistani grandmother on the same street who has become a shut in because of his posturing. > [@Peremensoe](#): > > Would you knowingly hire an anti-racist vigilante? Yes. I’ve known more than a few, and they were good people. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2011, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-you-think-that-people-are-decent/594167/63 "2011-08-26T19:58:54Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > Maybe so. I have no opinion on the matter as I haven’t a clue what that means. (I know what Japanese means and guess that skinhead means shaved head rather than Aryan, but that’s where it ends.) [Skrewdriver](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skrewdriver) was a racist British band much loved by brain addled skins. They got rather upset when they found their concerts were often cancelled after bad bad vigilantes informed the venue of who the act actually was (they often booked under pseudonyms). ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2011, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-you-think-that-people-are-decent/594167/64 "2011-08-26T20:07:27Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > And yes, it is unAmerican, because the \*point \*of this fucking country is that we get to think and say whatever we want, so long as we don’t cause harm to others. That goes out the window when something you say, legally, outside of work, that in no way affects your ability to effectively do your job, gets you _fired_. Because for every person you’re happy to see fired for being a bigot, someone with a completely different set of views is going to use the same reasoning to try to force the termination of an employee with a belief that you find acceptable but they object to. Most of a good post deleted, but fucking BINGO on this one. ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2011, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-you-think-that-people-are-decent/594167/65 "2011-08-26T20:16:14Z")
I think boycotting the restaurant is not correct. The fact of the matter is, even if the employer disagrees with the racist and _wanted_ to fire him, they could not. Firing him for his beliefs would not be justified (and illegal). Coercing the employer to take an unlawful action is kind of shitty. They could bar him from displaying racist material in their parking lot though, and then fire him if he doesn’t comply, but that’s about it. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2011, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-you-think-that-people-are-decent/594167/66 "2011-08-26T20:17:20Z")
So where exactly does my obligation to patronize a specific business end? I mean, as a good American. I mean, the last I checked, organizing a boycott didn’t mean forcing people to participate as some kind of mandatory thing, so all of these people presumably feel that they would rather not buy lunch from a place that employs a bigot, but apparently as decent Americans they are obligated to buy lunch there anyway? Am I missing some nuance here? Edit: I can’t speak for the people involved but personally I would be happy with an outcome that led to the employee removing the racist material from his vehicle. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2011, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-you-think-that-people-are-decent/594167/67 "2011-08-26T20:20:27Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > As racists go, this guy has some points in his favor. > > For one, he’s open; I’d _rather_ people say what they think than be cowed into keeping secrets. Ugly, hateful and wrong ideas, in the light of day, can be spotted and met. > > For another, he’s _not_ promoting violence, either explicitly (“shoot them at the border”) or implicitly (black hand chained to bumper, which I take to be a reference to the murder of James Byrd Jr.). I feel the opposite way. To me, open racism is worse than secret racism. I don’t want to slide down the slippery slope from a bumper sticker to a lynching tree, but it wasn’t all that long ago when a major facet of racism was its blatant openness. A bunch of bigots could drag a black man into the middle of the town square and torture him to death with a hundred people watching. The message was _“It’s not just a handful of us killing you in secret that you have to worry about. You better remember that the majority of the people in this town will back us up and let us kill you if we decide to. You have no friends here.”_ The civil rights movement may not have stopped all racism. But at least it drove it underground. Racists now have to hide in fear from what the rest of us think. They have to worry about people finding out they’re racist. And I don’t want them to lose that fear. I don’t want them thinking they can call somebody a nigger in public and get away with it. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2011, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-you-think-that-people-are-decent/594167/68 "2011-08-26T20:26:37Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The civil rights movement may not have stopped all racism. But at least it drove it underground. Racists now have to hide in fear from what the rest of us think. They have to worry about people finding out they’re racist. And I don’t want them to lose that fear. I don’t want them thinking they can call somebody a nigger in public and get away with it. And thats the very same system that bad old guys in the bad old days used to keep whoever down. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2011, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-you-think-that-people-are-decent/594167/69 "2011-08-26T20:32:40Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > And thats the very same system that bad old guys in the bad old days used to keep whoever down. Wow, when you put it that way, it’s so obvious. I can clearly see now that suppressing racism in society is exactly the same as suppressing the rights of minorities in society! ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2011, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-you-think-that-people-are-decent/594167/70 "2011-08-26T20:35:11Z")
OK, so you haven’t abandoned your “racists are the new black” argument. So what about the fact that the bad old guys in the bad old days were saying the exact same things that this guy’s bumper sticker was saying, and that it’s only been a few decades since those bad old days? When did it stop being a bad idea to point out and be hostile to racists, and start being actual oppression? 1981 was the last lynching, if that helps. ---
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2011, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-you-think-that-people-are-decent/594167/71 "2011-08-26T20:54:21Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > And thats the very same system that bad old guys in the bad old days used to keep whoever down. When racists start getting publicly lynched, and have their voting rights removed, and cannot eat in the same restaurants as non-racists, then maybe this will make sense. Until then, your statement is completely stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Terraplane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/74df32/32.png) [@Terraplane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terraplane)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2011, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-you-think-that-people-are-decent/594167/72 "2011-08-26T21:00:28Z")
I just don’t think open racism is comparable to any of the other beliefs that have been mentioned here. Religion, sexual orientation, race, none of these things are necessarily harmful or hateful. Open racism _is_. There _are_ beliefs that are inherently bad, and when shoved out into the open they become worse because they reinforce among those who believe them that what they believe is ok. Say you have kids, are you really ok with your neighbor hosting his NAMBLA meeting next door? Would you hire somebody with a “Pedophile’s Rights!” sticker on the back of his truck? I sure as hell wouldn’t. Certain things are inherently harmful, _the satisfaction of their wants is completely reliant on causing harm to others_. There is no upside to racism. There is no upside to pedophilia. There is no upside to gay bashing. There are things that can _only_ cause harm and I see no problem with society working to (peacefully!) weed them out. ---
**Author:** ![boytyperanma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2011, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-you-think-that-people-are-decent/594167/73 "2011-08-26T21:03:00Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > Now this, I have a problem with. If the restaurant were owned by a racist, fine, boycott them–I don’t want to give my money to racists, either. But to refuse to patronize a business because they’ve \*hired \*someone who holds and legally expresses views that you personally find distasteful? :dubious: > > As long as the guy can _perform his job without prejudice_, I don’t give a shit what his personal views are, so far as his continued employment is concerned. If you were to figure out that he’s a racist from the way he’s treating the customers, absolutely go to the management with it and boycott them if they don’t take action, but to say that people whose beliefs you don’t agree with (or find downright repulsive) don’t even deserve to be employed… That’s pretty fucking unAmerican. Any employee attempting to park a vehicle on my property with such a sticker would be fired on the spot. If I were running a restaurant I’d probably refuse service to even a customer who had such. Sorry you can take your ignorance somewhere else, you certainly aren’t going to advertise it on my property. Sorry I just can’t feel any empathy for a racist being ‘unfairly’ discriminated against. It is fair if they don’t want to be treated like a second class citizen they probably shouldn’t be expressing views that others are second class citizens. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2011, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-you-think-that-people-are-decent/594167/74 "2011-08-26T21:11:12Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > And thats the very same system that bad old guys in the bad old days used to keep whoever down. Terrorizing people because of their race or religion is wrong. But I’m okay with terrorizing the terrorists. They should be scared to commit any crimes. I’ll concede that hanging somebody over a racist bumper sticker is going too far. Beating somebody up over a bumper sticker is probably wrong. But boycotting a business over it? That’s fair - my message is I don’t like their message. Nobody said we have to tolerate intolerance. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2011, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-you-think-that-people-are-decent/594167/75 "2011-08-26T21:21:38Z")
You guys don’t get it do you. Key to your points is that your point of view is RIGHT and others is WRONG. Well, thats fucking great when you are the majority and aren’t to worried about how you go about maintaing that control. I’d rather worry about having a social methodology in which a minority position can rise to the top using the political/legal system and appeals to reason/logic rather than brute force. Is tell the guy he’s a cunt brute force? Nope. Is giving his employer hell for it and making it cost him money? Maybe. Is getting the business closed and the guy kicked out of his apartment and his beloved pickup truck burned? Probably. So, the question IMO becomes how much IRE should this guy get for having an unpopular opinion? I’d imagine the people who were fighting for civils rights would have been rather happier all around if all they had to worry about was some dirty looks, contentious elections, and not getting invited to backyard BBQ’s rather than lynchings, guns, dogs, buring houses, burning churches and what not. If you didnt like the tactics as an underdog you’er a damn hypocrite if you now like them as the top dog. Now, I’m not saying racist bumper sticker man is getting the same treatment as a civil rights fighter back in the day. I’m not even saying his POV is worth a shit. But, again, at some point atttempts to squelch his POV can become as “wrong” and problematic as things done in the past. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2011, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-you-think-that-people-are-decent/594167/76 "2011-08-26T21:21:40Z")
> [@villa](#): > > [Skrewdriver](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skrewdriver) was a racist British band much loved by brain addled skins. They got rather upset when they found their concerts were often cancelled after bad bad vigilantes informed the venue of who the act actually was (they often booked under pseudonyms). **villa** , I don’t appreciate you deliberately misusing the word “vigilante” here to play down the position you took up. Informing a music venue about the identity of Skrewdriver is not any kind of vigilantism, as I suspect you know; that’s mild activism. When I used the word, I was talking about physically assaulting people for their beliefs and words; that’s what I understand you to have endorsed. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I feel the opposite way. To me, open racism is worse than secret racism. > … > I don’t want them thinking they can call somebody a nigger in public and get away with it. I think you misread me a bit, or I didn’t put it well. I’m not saying I want people to feel they can call somebody a nigger in public and get away with it; I’m saying that _if_ they’re inclined to call somebody a nigger at all, I’d rather it be in public where they _will_ be challenged. Because the public challenge, the discussion it may create, is more likely to change them. The achievements of the civil rights movement were based on _making_ a public issue of it. > [@Terraplane](#): > > I just don’t think open racism is comparable to any of the other beliefs…There _are_ beliefs that are inherently bad… The problem with this, of course, is that people disagree about what beliefs meet this standard. Is a _belief_ in communism “inherently bad”? Christian fundamentalism? Radical environmentalism? Legalized prostitution? Sharia? Evolution? I’m ready to put my views in the public forum, and I damn sure don’t want _anyone_–government or vigilante–trying to _enforce_ (which means, backing by violence) their standards on me about what viewpoints are permissible. If I see somebody getting the shit kicked out of him in the parking lot, I’m coming to _his_ aid. The fact that some of you are doing it because he’s got a racist bumper sticker isn’t going to range me on your side. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2011, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-you-think-that-people-are-decent/594167/77 "2011-08-26T21:25:24Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > **villa** , I don’t appreciate you deliberately misusing the word “vigilante” here to play down the position you took up. Informing a music venue about the identity of Skrewdriver is not any kind of vigilantism, as I suspect you know; that’s mild activism. When I used the word, I was talking about physically assaulting people for their beliefs and words; that’s what I understand you to have endorsed. Well to be fair the people in AFA who used to do this also used to kick the shit out of neo-Nazis too. So you can be safe thinking badly of them. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2011, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-you-think-that-people-are-decent/594167/78 "2011-08-26T21:25:48Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > Is it terrible that I laughed? > [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > The word you are looking for here is “unsurprising.” > [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > No, no. I meant terrible. I guess it’s one of those things I shouldn’t laugh at, but did anyway. Oh. Then, no, it’s not terrible. But it _is_ unsurprising. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2011, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-you-think-that-people-are-decent/594167/79 "2011-08-26T21:42:38Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > … If I see somebody getting the shit kicked out of him in the parking lot, I’m coming to _his_ aid. The fact that some of you are doing it because he’s got a racist bumper sticker isn’t going to range me on your side. So how bad should I feel about having slugged that guy back in college? I mean all he and his group of friends did was stop me and express their free speech to a nerdy short Jewish looking kid. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2011, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-you-think-that-people-are-decent/594167/80 "2011-08-26T21:58:35Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > So how bad should I feel about having slugged that guy back in college? I mean all he and his group of friends did was stop me and express their free speech to a nerdy short Jewish looking kid. My reading of the situation in your first comment was that you were being actively threatened and defended yourself accordingly, not that you were “teaching the scum what it is like to live in fear.” So unless I misunderstood, you’re fine. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-you-think-that-people-are-decent/594167.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-you-think-that-people-are-decent/594167.md?page=5)