# Just when you think that people are decent... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 26, 2011, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-you-think-that-people-are-decent/594167 "2011-08-26T12:26:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2011, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-you-think-that-people-are-decent/594167/81 "2011-08-26T22:31:59Z")
> [@Terraplane](#): > > I’ve got no problem boycotting a business that hires openly racist employees. Violence or vandalism is going too far but there should be societal consequences for being an asshole. Sure, but I can’t help but wish more people would take [their sign](http://www.snopes.com/humor/jokes/heresign.asp) and display it proudly. It would be so much easier to navigate life if they all followed the guy in the black pickup’s example. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2011, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-you-think-that-people-are-decent/594167/82 "2011-08-26T23:10:31Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > Because his staff represents his business, especially when the car is parked in his lot.\ Since this kind of hate speech (the bumper sticker, not you, **Sampiro** ) is protected under the First Amendment in the United States, I’d say that any action against this individual based on his bumper sticker would be unconstitutional. I can say, however, that if I saw that bumper sticker while I was pulling into the parking lot, I’d find a different place to eat. By the way, I don’t agree with the US on this issue - I’m comfortable with hate speech not being covered under Free Speech laws. ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2011, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-you-think-that-people-are-decent/594167/83 "2011-08-26T23:24:37Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > A point of clarification. Free speech does not imply all views must be welcomed. > > You have the right to call somebody a nigger. And the rest of us have the right to call you a brain-damaged inbred short-dicked racist moron. I don’t see any reason to bring penis size into it, that’s just dickist. ---
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2011, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-you-think-that-people-are-decent/594167/84 "2011-08-26T23:33:07Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > Since this kind of hate speech (the bumper sticker, not you, **Sampiro** ) is protected under the First Amendment in the United States, I’d say that any action against this individual based on his bumper sticker would be unconstitutional. I can say, however, that if I saw that bumper sticker while I was pulling into the parking lot, I’d find a different place to eat. > > By the way, I don’t agree with the US on this issue - I’m comfortable with hate speech not being covered under Free Speech laws. I am in no way trying to be snarky, but I think you _really_ don’t understand how free speech works in the US. Free speech means the **US Governmen** t cannot curb your speech; it says nothing at all about private citizens not being able to discriminate based on this. I recall a woman who was fired from her job for having a Kerry (Democratic presidential candidate) sticker on her car; this wasn’t illegal. Now, if she’d worked for the government, it would have been, but the fast food place can (as far as I know; I’m not a lawyer) fire this guy for his bumper sticker or whatever and that’s perfectly fine. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2011, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-you-think-that-people-are-decent/594167/85 "2011-08-26T23:46:16Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > You guys don’t get it do you. Key to your points is that your point of view is RIGHT and others is WRONG. > > Well, thats fucking great when you are the majority and aren’t to worried about how you go about maintaing that control. > > I’d rather worry about having a social methodology in which a minority position can rise to the top using the political/legal system and appeals to reason/logic rather than brute force. > > Is tell the guy he’s a cunt brute force? Nope. Is giving his employer hell for it and making it cost him money? Maybe. Is getting the business closed and the guy kicked out of his apartment and his beloved pickup truck burned? Probably. > > So, the question IMO becomes how much IRE should this guy get for having an unpopular opinion? > > I’d imagine the people who were fighting for civils rights would have been rather happier all around if all they had to worry about was some dirty looks, contentious elections, and not getting invited to backyard BBQ’s rather than lynchings, guns, dogs, buring houses, burning churches and what not. > > If you didnt like the tactics as an underdog you’er a damn hypocrite if you now like them as the top dog. > > Now, I’m not saying racist bumper sticker man is getting the same treatment as a civil rights fighter back in the day. I’m not even saying his POV is worth a shit. But, again, at some point atttempts to squelch his POV can become as “wrong” and problematic as things done in the past. You’re not seeing the point here. I’m not arguing that all views should be entitled to the same treatment. I never took an oath to defend racism. This isn’t a situation where all points of view are equal so we’re supposed to give all of them equal treatment, even those we disagree with. This is like arguing about whether the earth is round or flat. The people who say it’s round are right and the people who say it’s flat are wrong. And the round earth people don’t have to “respect” the opinion of the flat earth people and give their opinion equal time. Same thing with racism. It’s not just a difference of opinion. It’s wrong and we’re going to treat it likes it wrong. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2011, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-you-think-that-people-are-decent/594167/86 "2011-08-26T23:56:47Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > Since this kind of hate speech (the bumper sticker, not you, **Sampiro** ) is protected under the First Amendment in the United States, I’d say that any action against this individual based on his bumper sticker would be unconstitutional. I can say, however, that if I saw that bumper sticker while I was pulling into the parking lot, I’d find a different place to eat. It varies from state to state. Arizona, for example, is a Right-to-Work state, meaning that employees can be fired for any non-protected reason. So your employer can’t fire you for being a Jew or for being black, but they can fire you for preferring lasagna to spaghetti. > [@Cat Whisperer](#): > > By the way, I don’t agree with the US on this issue - I’m comfortable with hate speech not being covered under Free Speech laws. I, and I think maybe most Americans, would disagree with your disagreement. In school we’re taught about such cases as [the infamous Skokie incident](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialist_Party_of_America_v._Village_of_Skokie) where a bunch of National Socialist Party of America members (read: Nazis) fought to march through Skokie, a largely Jewish community where one in six residents were Holocaust survivors. I think the guy mentioned in the OP is an asshat but I think it’s imperative that he be allowed to say or display whatever he wants, including that bumper sticker. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2011, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-you-think-that-people-are-decent/594167/87 "2011-08-27T00:08:38Z")
[QUOTE=carnivorousplant] I saw and wanted a “Buck Bush” T-shirt where the B was drawn to look like an F. [/QUOTE] Well that’s just retarded. What does Buck Fush even mean ? 😕 > [@DSeid](#): > > OTOH when the Nazis wanted to march in Skokie I argued for their right to do so, but to have a circus as a counter protest to demonstrate that they are clowns. I hate Illinois nazis. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2011, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-you-think-that-people-are-decent/594167/88 "2011-08-27T00:11:37Z")
I’m totally on board with the OP, except for this part: > [@Drain\_Bead](#): > > I thought things were getting better, that our country was becoming more color-blind and accepting of differences. But are we, when that asshole feels perfectly safe driving around displaying that crap for the world to see? This is bizarre. It’s like saying “I thought it would be unacceptable to jill people and eat them, but Dahmer did that, so it must be acceptable.” Just because someone does something doesn’t mean that everyone else thinks it’s OK for them to do that. This kind of reaching to argue that there’s still rampant racism really bugs me. Just get mad at this guy for being a turkey–you don’t need to try to shoehorn his actions into some lame argument that racism is still rampant eberywhere. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2011, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-you-think-that-people-are-decent/594167/89 "2011-08-27T00:25:58Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > My reading of the situation in your first comment was that you were being actively threatened and defended yourself accordingly, not that you were “teaching the scum what it is like to live in fear.” So unless I misunderstood, you’re fine. He didn’t hit me first. He just used words. No, “defense” would have been better served by walking away without comment. This was merely being my father’s son, a father who had been among the first at the gates of Dachau. You do not tolerate hate speech (from his point of view, perhaps only hate speech directed at our group), you make them regret having said it, even if you get more hurt in the process. Now at my current age I might not do it again. And I wish I would have a better response. Intellectually I would agree with the argument that it was wrong to respond in that manner. But I am still, deep down inside, happy with myself for having taken that swing (… and happier still that I got out of it fairly unscathed). Intellectually I believe the jerk with the re-nig sticker should not be physically harmed. But like the op I wouldn’t be too upset to hear that he said the wrong thing in the wrong place and got his ass handed to him. My brain is not in favor of that, but my gut sure is. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2011, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-you-think-that-people-are-decent/594167/90 "2011-08-27T00:51:06Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > He didn’t hit me first. He just used words. No, “defense” would have been better served by walking away without comment. This was merely being my father’s son, a father who had been among the first at the gates of Dachau. You do not tolerate hate speech (from his point of view, perhaps only hate speech directed at our group), you make them regret having said it, even if you get more hurt in the process. I’d have done it, too under those circumstances. > [@DSeid](#): > > Intellectually I believe the jerk with the re-nig sticker should not be physically harmed. But like the op I wouldn’t be too upset to hear that he said the wrong thing in the wrong place and got his ass handed to him.. I assure you, he can’t drive that truck in Pine Bluff, Arkansas. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2011, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-you-think-that-people-are-decent/594167/91 "2011-08-27T00:56:22Z")
> [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > I am in no way trying to be snarky, but I think you _really_ don’t understand how free speech works in the US. Free speech means the **US Governmen** t cannot curb your speech; it says nothing at all about private citizens not being able to discriminate based on this. I recall a woman who was fired from her job for having a Kerry (Democratic presidential candidate) sticker on her car; this wasn’t illegal. Now, if she’d worked for the government, it would have been, but the fast food place can (as far as I know; I’m not a lawyer) fire this guy for his bumper sticker or whatever and that’s perfectly fine. Correction: This is perfectly _legal_. It isn’t _fine_. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2011, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-you-think-that-people-are-decent/594167/92 "2011-08-27T01:15:17Z")
In my opinion, the attitude of the OP and others like her are in large part why we still have so much racism in our society. Somewhere along the line things changed from dignified, well-behaved and well-dressed black people demonstrating for equal rights to angry and indignant white liberals shouting “racist” at every opportunity and literally shutting down any and all public dialog on the subject. You either got on board with every leftie attempt to deal with race, or you were an asshole. Simple as that. So where Martin Luther King and the more dignified (and sympathetic) civil rights marchers made great headway in changing minds and causing people to identify and sympathize with black people as human beings, the strident and angry name-calling and demands for career sacrifice and so on which has become the norm since has served not to end racism but merely to drive it underground. In my opinion there would be far less racism today had the tactics and philosophy of Martin Luther King predominated over the last forty years rather than the angry and punitive type demonstrated so well by our excruciatingly self-righteous and punitive OP. Do you really think, **drain bead** , that your behavior toward this individual is going to accomplish anything but to make him even more of racist than he already is, and make the restaurant owner reluctant to hire black people because if someone like you gets het up over something that one of his employees does in his private life it’s going to cause him problems with his business? Education, understanding and enlightenment are the key to ending racism, not calling people names and demanding the lose of their jobs (or in the case of someone like Michael Richards, their career). When you insult people and call them names, you make them angry and defensive and even more determined to have their way. In other words, you create even more of a racist attitude than existed before, and you probably reinforce it among his friends as well. This is just another one of the many, many ways which in my opinon the liberal approach creates more problems than it solves. But hey, it makes you feel good and that’s all that matters, right? ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2011, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-you-think-that-people-are-decent/594167/93 "2011-08-27T01:22:31Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Intellectually I believe the jerk with the re-nig sticker should not be physically harmed. But like the op I wouldn’t be too upset to hear that he said the wrong thing in the wrong place and got his ass handed to him. My brain is not in favor of that, but my gut sure is. Depending on the exact circumstances of how it happened, I might be in favor too. I’d pop him myself if he was really actively threatening someone. I’ve said before on this board that society is more civil when certain extremities of _personal_ speech are not crossed. I live in a part of the country that still believes, socially if not legally, in “fighting words” in this context. I don’t think any sign or bumper sticker addressed to a general audience can ever rise to this standard, but words between people face to face sometimes can. So while I am absolutely against ambushing this guy after work and kicking his ass just because of his bumper sticker, or making him feel like that’s an imminent possibility (as **villa** and **Nemo** might wish to do), if he actually called a real, present black person a nigger in front of me, I’d have something to say about it. But I am _not_ down with bashing people for who they are, what they think, or what they say, no matter how abhorrent anybody finds them for it. “Terrorizing the terrorists” just makes you a terrorist, too. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2011, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-you-think-that-people-are-decent/594167/94 "2011-08-27T01:24:00Z")
So you’re arguing it’s okay to call somebody a nigger but it’s wrong to insult somebody by calling them a name? ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2011, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-you-think-that-people-are-decent/594167/95 "2011-08-27T01:24:58Z")
So, did the guy buy the bumper sticker because a liberal was sloppily dressed and spoke uncouthly to him earlier in his life? Did the person who decided it was a good idea to make a bumper sticker that said “Don’t Re-Nig” do that because of the decline in civility and the _dignity_ (which how dare you, honestly) with which progressives asked racists to stop being so racist? Or are you taking the effect and making it the cause because it fits into your particular pet narrative about how the world works, and does the whole thing very obviously fall to pieces if you even stop to think about it for fifteen seconds? ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2011, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-you-think-that-people-are-decent/594167/96 "2011-08-27T01:25:25Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > In my opinion, the attitude of the OP and others like her are in large part why we still have so much racism in our society. Somewhere along the line things changed from **dignified, well-behaved and well-dressed** black people demonstrating for equal rights to angry and indignant white liberals shouting “racist” at every opportunity and literally shutting down any and all public dialog on the subject. What, no “well-spoken”? ---
**Author:** ![phouka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c5a1d2/32.png) [@phouka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phouka)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2011, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-you-think-that-people-are-decent/594167/97 "2011-08-27T01:25:51Z")
Word bolded by me: > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > I thought it would be unacceptable to **jill** people and eat them . . . Could I get a clarification or definition on that one? I am unfamiliar with this usage. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2011, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-you-think-that-people-are-decent/594167/98 "2011-08-27T01:36:43Z")
> [@phouka](#): > > Word bolded by me: > > Could I get a clarification or definition on that one? I am unfamiliar with this usage. ☹ I thought someone may do something funny with that typo and instead we got this. ---
**Author:** ![boytyperanma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2011, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-you-think-that-people-are-decent/594167/99 "2011-08-27T01:43:02Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > In my opinion, the attitude of the OP and others like her are in large part why we still have so much racism in our society. Somewhere along the line things changed from dignified, well-behaved and well-dressed black people demonstrating for equal rights to angry and indignant white liberals shouting “racist” at every opportunity and literally shutting down any and all public dialog on the subject. You either got on board with every leftie attempt to deal with race, or you were an asshole. Simple as that. So where Martin Luther King and the more dignified (and sympathetic) civil rights marchers made great headway in changing minds and causing people to identify and sympathize with black people as human beings, the strident and angry name-calling and demands for career sacrifice and so on which has become the norm since has served not to end racism but merely to drive it underground. > > In my opinion there would be far less racism today had the tactics and philosophy of Martin Luther King predominated over the last forty years rather than the angry and punitive type demonstrated so well by our excruciatingly self-righteous and punitive OP. Do you really think, **drain bead** , that your behavior toward this individual is going to accomplish anything but to make him even more of racist than he already is, and make the restaurant owner reluctant to hire black people because if someone like you gets het up over something that one of his employees does in his private life it’s going to cause him problems with his business? > > Education, understanding and enlightenment are the key to ending racism, not calling people names and demanding the lose of their jobs (or in the case of someone like Michael Richards, their career). When you insult people and call them names, you make them angry and defensive and even more determined to have their way. In other words, you create even more of a racist attitude than existed before, and you probably reinforce it among his friends as well. This is just another one of the many, many ways which in my opinon the liberal approach creates more problems than it solves. But hey, it makes you feel good and that’s all that matters, right? Could you just make a macro that says ‘it’s all the liberals fault’ and use it rather then typing out your typical bullshit it would save everyone time and brain cells. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2011, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-you-think-that-people-are-decent/594167/100 "2011-08-27T01:43:33Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > But hey, it makes you feel good and that’s all that matters, right? Here I was, thinking you made a good point, but this last sentence helps how? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-you-think-that-people-are-decent/594167.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-you-think-that-people-are-decent/594167.md?page=6)