# Just when you think that people are decent... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 26, 2011, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-you-think-that-people-are-decent/594167 "2011-08-26T12:26:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2011, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-you-think-that-people-are-decent/594167/141 "2011-08-28T18:59:55Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Ever come across a Hammerskin? I’d be entertained to see you sit down and have a rational discussion with him about his ideology. I don’t mean that the discussion is, necessarily, directly _with_ the people (though personally I will go pretty far in trying to engage and understand people). No, I mean that when an idea you think is wrong is expressed in the public forum, you should respond with your counter-ideas in the public forum. Convincing _that person_ is never as important as putting the better perspectives in front of the general audience. > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > 100%. “Redneck” isn’t a racist term. Offensive, maybe, but not because of racism. Not that that was the question. If you agree it’s insulting at all, it can’t be _one hundred percent less so_ than any other insulting term. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2011, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-you-think-that-people-are-decent/594167/142 "2011-08-28T19:08:19Z")
> [@On another topic](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/594656/11): > > Who do you mean “we”, Kemosabe? Not trying to speak for **Little Nemo** , but by we in that statement I would mean anyone who isn’t an inbred, mouth-breathing cracker. > [@Peremensoe](#): > > I don’t mean that the discussion is, necessarily, directly _with_ the people (though personally I will go pretty far in trying to engage and understand people). No, I mean that when an idea you think is wrong is expressed in the public forum, you should respond with your counter-ideas in the public forum. Convincing _that person_ is never as important as putting the better perspectives in front of the general audience. You act like the two are incompatible. There are many of us who didn’t want assholes like that in our town, on our streets, in our bars. It’s perfectly possible to argue against the racist scum as well as take more direct action when that action is called for. And if one of the results of that direct action is losing a minimal amount of support from people like you who want your hands completely clean, that’s life. Except it wouldn’t, because unless it was in your community you would never hear about it. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2011, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-you-think-that-people-are-decent/594167/143 "2011-08-28T19:16:25Z")
I think we just disagree about _what_ direct action is called for, and _when_. To my understanding, some of your imagined action sounds worse than what you’re responding to, and I presume that many in most communities would agree. To be clear, you are saying that you are potentially _in favor_ of assaulting people (without talking to them first) on the basis of their bumper stickers? ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2011, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-you-think-that-people-are-decent/594167/144 "2011-08-28T19:19:18Z")
For a bumper sticker, probably not. As I started in this thread, I won’t shed any tears I’d his truck got vandalized though. I also wouldn’t shed any tears if he got a slap, though I don’t think that’s necessarily called for. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2011, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-you-think-that-people-are-decent/594167/145 "2011-08-28T19:20:15Z")
> [@On another topic](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/594656/11): > > You left out the “IMHO”. Furthermore, I have yet to see any evidence that the man with the bumper sticker is racist. To say that he is is a non sequitur. The guy with the bumper sticker has the right to be express his odious and racist opinions, and in the OP’s place I couldn’t have been bothered to confront him or try to get him fired. But that the opinion expressed by his bumper sticker is racist is obvious. It is patently obvious that you are trolling. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2011, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-you-think-that-people-are-decent/594167/146 "2011-08-28T19:33:22Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > Now this, I have a problem with. If the restaurant were owned by a racist, fine, boycott them–I don’t want to give my money to racists, either. But to refuse to patronize a business because they’ve \*hired \*someone who holds and legally expresses views that you personally find distasteful? :dubious: > > As long as the guy can _perform his job without prejudice_, I don’t give a shit what his personal views are, so far as his continued employment is concerned. If you were to figure out that he’s a racist from the way he’s treating the customers, absolutely go to the management with it and boycott them if they don’t take action, but to say that people whose beliefs you don’t agree with (or find downright repulsive) don’t even deserve to be employed… That’s pretty fucking unAmerican. Well said. And I’m surprised that some (the OP) think it okay to vandalize this guy’s truck. That’s both wrong, criminal, and cowardly. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2011, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-you-think-that-people-are-decent/594167/147 "2011-08-28T19:36:09Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > No, just my belief that you shouldn’t be a bigot. Or else…I’ll take my business elsewhere, yes. Ooh, how very un-American, choosing where to spend my money. Newsflash: there are and will always be bigots. What do you, say, if you’re cable service is provided by AT&T and discover that one of their employees is an asshole bigot? ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2011, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-you-think-that-people-are-decent/594167/148 "2011-08-28T19:38:14Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > Oh yeah? Well, I disagree with your disagreeing with my disagreement. 🙂 > > So Freedom of Speech is only for the government, not anyone else? Fire his ignorant ass then. He’s free to say what he wants (in the form of his bumper sticker), and he’s free to enjoy the consequences of it. Our American friends are correct when they say that the First Amendment to the US Constitution protects them from their own government; and by extension, government agencies and similar. No government body may take adverse action against an individual or group because of what that individual or group says. However, the First Amendment offers no protection from actions taken by private individuals or businesses or similar; so if the restaurant chooses to fire the pickup truck owner, it can. Subject, of course, to the procedures or requirements found in any employment legislation in place in the jurisdiction. **Cat Whisperer** , you may be interested to know that we have the same protections from the government here in Canada under our own constitution, and we also enjoy an extremely broad definition of free speech. Yes, we have hate speech laws, but those are rarely invoked in spite of all the nasty things that Canadians can and do say to and about others. A survey of the statute and case law involving hate speech shows that there are specific elements necessary to make out a case in hate speech, and I don’t think those elements are present in the bumper sticker referenced in the OP. The upshot is that the sticker may be offensive, but it would be permissible to display such a sticker in Canada. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2011, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-you-think-that-people-are-decent/594167/149 "2011-08-28T19:45:30Z")
**Starving Artist** ’s position: “be a nice little black person, and we’ll give you your rights.” (That may not be your intention, but that’s the impression you leave, SA. Civil RIGHTS shouldn’t be something a person has to earn. That’s why they’re called “rights”. > [@The\_Doughnut\_Thief](#): > > And boom goes the [Dynamite](http://www.stumpysstickers.com/) Ugh. I did find the “Willy Nelson for President” amusing. Considering that Willy’s a pot-head leftist. > [@On another topic](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/594656/11): > > You left out the “IMHO”. Furthermore, I have yet to see any evidence that the man with the bumper sticker is racist. To say that he is is a non sequitur. Using racial slurs makes one racist, dumbass. “Nigger” is a racial slur. And once again, the guy has every right to express his views. And I have the right to think that he’s a fucking asshole. “Tolerance” doesn’t mean being so open-minded your brain falls out. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2011, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-you-think-that-people-are-decent/594167/150 "2011-08-28T19:46:24Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > Because his staff represents his business, especially when the car is parked in his lot. First, while this is likely, it is an assumption. Many places in crowded areas do not allow employees to park in their lots due to limited space. It also assumes that he even drives to work. My point is that this isn’t a necessary situation. On the other hand, if when you pull into a lot and see a sign or a bumper sticker on a car, you do have the right to leave. Or even to mention it to the owner. But what do you do if the car belongs to a patron, and not an employee? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2011, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-you-think-that-people-are-decent/594167/151 "2011-08-28T19:49:39Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > Was this to me? No, I think it’s wrong to call somebody a nigger under any circumstances. I was addressing the question of whether it is _right_ to respond with violence. No, I was responding to Starving Artist’s post that was right above yours. I was writing my response (which was originally longer) at the same time you were posting yours. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2011, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-you-think-that-people-are-decent/594167/152 "2011-08-28T19:56:02Z")
> [@On another topic](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/594656/11): > > Who do you mean “we”, Kemosabe? > > You left out the “IMHO”. Furthermore, I have yet to see any evidence that the man with the bumper sticker is racist. To say that he is is a non sequitur. There are two groups of people in the world. Normal intelligent people who know calling somebody a nigger is racist and racism is wrong. And there’s brain-damaged inbred short-dicked racist morons. I’ll go on record saying I’m in the first group. I was willing to assume you belonged to the first group as well. But ultimately it’s your choice. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2011, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-you-think-that-people-are-decent/594167/153 "2011-08-28T19:58:52Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > You’re not seeing the point here. I’m not arguing that all views should be entitled to the same treatment. I never took an oath to defend racism. > > This isn’t a situation where all points of view are equal so we’re supposed to give all of them equal treatment, even those we disagree with. > > This is like arguing about whether the earth is round or flat. The people who say it’s round are right and the people who say it’s flat are wrong. And the round earth people don’t have to “respect” the opinion of the flat earth people and give their opinion equal time. > > Same thing with racism. It’s not just a difference of opinion. It’s wrong and we’re going to treat it likes it wrong. So it’s wrong. So what. Are you going to vandalize someone’s car or try to have them fired because of their “the earth is flat” or “the earth is 6,000 years old” sticker? ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2011, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-you-think-that-people-are-decent/594167/154 "2011-08-28T20:02:39Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > So it’s wrong. So what. Are you going to vandalize someone’s car or try to have them fired because of their “the earth is flat” or “the earth is 6,000 years old” sticker? Their flat earth sticker is relatively harmless. Their OEC sticker is also not designed to instill fear in a community. Racism is meant to threaten, and it does. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2011, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-you-think-that-people-are-decent/594167/155 "2011-08-28T20:14:47Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Their flat earth sticker is relatively harmless. Their OEC sticker is also not designed to instill fear in a community. Racism is meant to threaten, and it does. Not necessarily. And I think the bumper sticker in question is an example of one that does not threaten. While it shows the owner to be an asshole, the only action it implies is VOTING Obama out of office. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2011, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-you-think-that-people-are-decent/594167/156 "2011-08-28T20:18:05Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Correction: This is perfectly _legal_. It isn’t _fine_. IANAL, but I’m not so sure about that. The bumper sticker, while racist, is also political speech, and as such, could not be used as grounds for firing someone. Like religious speech, I’d say? Any lawyers in the thread? ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2011, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-you-think-that-people-are-decent/594167/157 "2011-08-28T20:25:08Z")
Unless the bigot in question is being obvious about it at work, there are no grounds to fire him based on his bumper sticker. The boss could, however, require him to park somewhere else other than on business property, and if the bigot refuses, fire him for that. But he(the boss) would have to be sure that _every other_ political opinion expressed on a bumper by his employees was treated the same way if he wanted to dodge a lawsuit. Although personally, I’d be very up-front about not tolerating bigots. The public support and increased patronage just might counter-act any legal fees. ---
**Author:** ![Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omg_a_Black_Conservative)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2011, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-you-think-that-people-are-decent/594167/158 "2011-08-28T20:31:19Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Oh. Then, no, it’s not terrible. > > But it _is_ unsurprising. All right. I’ll bite. Do explain. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2011, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-you-think-that-people-are-decent/594167/159 "2011-08-28T20:33:57Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Not necessarily. And I think the bumper sticker in question is an example of one that does not threaten. While it shows the owner to be an asshole, the only action it implies is VOTING Obama out of office. And you’re wrong. There’s nothing threatening about a bumper sticker which calls for Obama to not be re-elected. But when it focuses on the term “nigger” it becomes part of a threat to the African American community as a whole. Much like saying “don’t vote for Frank” sends a deliberately different message to “don’t vote for the fag.” ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2011, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-you-think-that-people-are-decent/594167/160 "2011-08-28T20:35:31Z")
> [@President Andrew Sheppard](#): > > America is advanced citizenship. You gotta want it bad, 'cause it’s gonna put up a fight. It’s gonna say "You want free speech? Let’s see you acknowledge a man whose words make your blood boil, who’s standing center stage and advocating at the top of his lungs that which you would spend a lifetime opposing at the top of yours. You want to claim this land as the land of the free? Then the symbol of your country can’t just be a flag; the symbol also has to be one of its citizens exercising his right to burn that flag in protest. Show me that, defend that, celebrate that in your classrooms. Then, you can stand up and sing about the “land of the free”. Just saying.. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-you-think-that-people-are-decent/594167.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-you-think-that-people-are-decent/594167.md?page=9)