# Just when you thought the situation in Iraq couldn't get any more surreal **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 20, 2004, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-you-thought-the-situation-in-iraq-couldnt-get-any-more-surreal/270239 "2004-10-20T16:44:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-you-thought-the-situation-in-iraq-couldnt-get-any-more-surreal/270239/21 "2004-10-21T14:21:07Z")
You’re turning into **milroyj**. Forget the source, just look at the photograph **RedFury** linked to. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-you-thought-the-situation-in-iraq-couldnt-get-any-more-surreal/270239/22 "2004-10-21T14:23:51Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > If it is true, then it actually helps to prove my point. If the US military is capable of pulling off such a successful ruse, then my hat’s off to them. It proves the OP and others wrong who are suggesting that such a feat would not be possible. It’s only successful in pulling off those ruses to willful saps like you, eager to swallow everything this administration tells you. The Arab world was not fooled by the statue stunt, nor were people capable of critical thinking in the West. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-you-thought-the-situation-in-iraq-couldnt-get-any-more-surreal/270239/23 "2004-10-21T14:24:28Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > If it is true, then it actually helps to prove my point. If the US military is capable of pulling off such a successful ruse, then my hat’s off to them. It proves the OP and others wrong who are suggesting that such a feat would not be possible. It actually is true, and it proves that your initial claim was bullshit. If your “point” was that you’re a gullible idiot, well, then, I guess we’ll let you have your point. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-you-thought-the-situation-in-iraq-couldnt-get-any-more-surreal/270239/24 "2004-10-21T14:29:45Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > If it is true, then it actually helps to prove my point. If the US military is capable of pulling off such a successful ruse, then my hat’s off to them. The ruse being, essentially, to deceive the American public and the rest of the world by fundamentally misrepresenting the state of the country we’d just “liberated”. Frankly, it doesn’t make me want to take my hat off so much as it makes me want to move to Canada. The production of propoganda to be fed to the public should not be a military function. ---
**Author:** ![calm\_kiwi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc348/32.png) [@calm\_kiwi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/calm_kiwi)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-you-thought-the-situation-in-iraq-couldnt-get-any-more-surreal/270239/25 "2004-10-21T14:32:05Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > One would think that they’d also want to hand out Polish flags too. Ya know… To show off the coalition. Hey I know the debate made the “ooops and the Polish” thing a joke but carrying it on is fairly shitty. There were many countries who wouldn’t join the coalition of the _willing_, why take the piss put of those who did? ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-you-thought-the-situation-in-iraq-couldnt-get-any-more-surreal/270239/26 "2004-10-21T14:36:05Z")
> [@calm kiwi](#): > > There were many countries who wouldn’t join the coalition of the _willing_, why take the piss put of those who did? Because being a lackey is even more disgusting then being a ringleader? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-you-thought-the-situation-in-iraq-couldnt-get-any-more-surreal/270239/27 "2004-10-21T14:38:31Z")
> [@calm kiwi](#): > > Hey I know the debate made the “ooops and the Polish” thing a joke but carrying it on is fairly shitty. There were many countries who wouldn’t join the coalition of the _willing_, why take the piss put of those who did? The joke being the fact that the US was willing to spread the propaganda solely for itself, and not for the other countries that backed it in this war. The CIA wasn’t handing out Spanish, Australian, UK, et al flags either. So instead of proving to the world that a coalition effort to remove Saddam’s government was made, the CIA was willing to make this an American effort. Thusly ignoring all of the coalition help they received. Since Poland was mentioned in the debate a couple times by President Bush as part of this memorable coalition, the humor lies in the fact that they were being forgotten about when it comes time to hand out the little flags. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-you-thought-the-situation-in-iraq-couldnt-get-any-more-surreal/270239/28 "2004-10-21T14:46:55Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > Because being a lackey is even more disgusting then being a ringleader? 😛 On further reflection, I think “pathetic” is a better adjective then “disgusting.” ---
**Author:** ![BJMoose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5fc32e/32.png) [@BJMoose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BJMoose)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-you-thought-the-situation-in-iraq-couldnt-get-any-more-surreal/270239/29 "2004-10-21T15:11:52Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > I’ve never heard of the “Editor and Publisher”. Is that a reputable news source? _Editor and Publisher_ is an old, well-established trade magazine of the newspaper industry (it claims to be the oldest). Spend a few minutes wandering their website and you should get some feel for them. > [@](#): > > Checking Google, I see lots of hits for left wing sites and blogs talking about this PSYOP statue story, but nothing mainstream. I’m genuinly curious to see if this is true. I recall seeing something on this story several months back and I presume it _was_ in the “mainstream media”, since that’s about all I have time for these days. (The problem here is, most of them don’t keep news stories up on their sites too long.) ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-you-thought-the-situation-in-iraq-couldnt-get-any-more-surreal/270239/30 "2004-10-21T15:21:57Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > I’ve never heard of the “Editor and Publisher”. Is that a reputable news source? Checking Google, I see lots of hits for left wing sites and blogs talking about this PSYOP statue story, but nothing mainstream. I’m genuinly curious to see if this is true. No you’re not. If you were, all you’d have to do is look at the picture. But since it’s Kool-Aid antidote, you’ll refuse to believe your lying eyes. > [@](#): > > If it is true, then it actually helps to prove my point. If the US military is capable of pulling off such a successful ruse, then my hat’s off to them. It proves the OP and others wrong who are suggesting that such a feat would not be possible. WTF? What “point” would that be other than the one on top of your head? Because the only people that fell for the ruse are BushBots such as yourself. Out in the real world this was just one more example of the campaign of lies your Gov is involved in. Tell you what, want to see for yourself just how popular American flags are in Iraq? Grab a couple of boxes full of them, stand in the middle of the very square in that picture and hand them out to any Iraqi that happens to walk by. _Then_ come back and tell us just how well that theory of yours went. Provided there are any functioning parts of you left that is. But since you’re clearly braindead already, the experience may not be all that painful. Idiot. ---
**Author:** ![ElectricZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/58f4c7/32.png) [@ElectricZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElectricZ)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-you-thought-the-situation-in-iraq-couldnt-get-any-more-surreal/270239/31 "2004-10-21T15:44:53Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > I’ve never heard of the “Editor and Publisher”. Is that a reputable news source? Checking Google, I see lots of hits for left wing sites and blogs talking about this PSYOP statue story, but nothing mainstream. I’m genuinly curious to see if this is true. How about [this source?](http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/20/international/20war.html) > [@Debaser](#): > > If it is true, then it actually helps to prove my point. If the US military is capable of pulling off such a successful ruse, then my hat’s off to them. It proves the OP and others wrong who are suggesting that such a feat would not be possible. It wasn’t the US Military that wanted to pull it off. The US Military was against it, with good reason: > [@](#): > > Lt. Gen. David McKiernan, the commander of allied ground forces, quickly objected. To avoid being perceived as an occupying army, American forces had been instructed not to brandish the flag. So, how did you prove me wrong, again? My assertion was that whoever it was in the CIA that came up with this plan had his head up his as for not seeing what a stupid plan this was. My assertion was that this “ruse” could not have been successful and would have been harmful, and that our intelligence gathering agency was suffering some serious lapses in reality by suggesting it. My assertion was, and is, that this is bad for all involved parties. > [@](#): > > The agency believed that many of the towns were “ours,” said one former staff officer who attended the session. “At first, it was going to be U.S. flags,” he said, “and then it was going to be Iraqi flags. The flags are probably still sitting in a bag somewhere. One of the towns where they said we would be welcomed was Nasiriya, where Marines faced some of the toughest fighting in the war.” Care to prove me wrong some more, Debaser? :wally EZ ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-you-thought-the-situation-in-iraq-couldnt-get-any-more-surreal/270239/32 "2004-10-21T15:44:56Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Tell you what, want to see for yourself just how popular American flags are in Iraq? Grab a couple of boxes full of them, stand in the middle of the very square in that picture and hand them out to any Iraqi that happens to walk by. > > _Then_ come back and tell us just how well that theory of yours went. Provided there are any functioning parts of you left that is. But since you’re clearly braindead already, the experience may not be all that painful. > > Idiot. Put me down for a donation towards sending this informed citizen and any of the other see-no-evil apologists over for a spot of flag selling. I want a live web cam on the proceedings though. ---
**Author:** ![ElectricZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/58f4c7/32.png) [@ElectricZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElectricZ)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-you-thought-the-situation-in-iraq-couldnt-get-any-more-surreal/270239/33 "2004-10-21T15:48:37Z")
> [@ElectricZ](#): > > How about [this source?](http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/20/international/20war.html) Apologies – that’s the NY Times, requiring registration… EZ ---
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-you-thought-the-situation-in-iraq-couldnt-get-any-more-surreal/270239/34 "2004-10-21T16:27:27Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > OK. > > Sorry that was a bit harsh. But frankly a bit of reading about the history of almost any conflict you’d care to mention (I find the modern stuff easier to relate to personally) will show you that this is all SOP. If I understand you correctly, then I suppose I should have been more specific. My confusion was not regarding the use of misinformation in general, but particularly regarding the allegation that Army PSYOPS was responsible for the staged destruction of Saddam’s statue. I was under the impression that the purpose of Army PSYOPS was to facilitate the work of the Army, whereas it would seem to me that this action worked against that goal by creating a distorted picture of how much resistance the troops would face. It seems like the NY Times article that **ElectricZ** linked to might address this, although since I am not a subscriber so I cannot tell for sure. ---
**Author:** ![ElectricZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/58f4c7/32.png) [@ElectricZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElectricZ)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-you-thought-the-situation-in-iraq-couldnt-get-any-more-surreal/270239/35 "2004-10-21T16:40:43Z")
> [@Terrifel](#): > > It seems like the NY Times article that **ElectricZ** linked to might address this, although since I am not a subscriber so I cannot tell for sure. It’s basiaclly the same story by the same author. In the original link back in post 1, the byline reads: > [@](#): > > By MICHAEL R. GORDON > THE NEW YORK TIMES The SeattlePI doesn’t require registration, though. If you Google +CIA +“American flags” +Iraq the top link takes you to the first page of the NYT article. EZ ---
**Author:** ![paperbackwriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/53a042/32.png) [@paperbackwriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/paperbackwriter)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-you-thought-the-situation-in-iraq-couldnt-get-any-more-surreal/270239/36 "2004-10-21T16:46:25Z")
Just for accuracy’s sake, **ElectricZ** ’s cite isn’t about the Saddam Statue photo. It’s a long article basically how the CIA, after totally screwing the pooch on the weapons in Iraq issue, then proceeded to screw the pooch on how much resistance the US forces would face. They declared that a number of cities were “ours” and would quickly support American troops when they arrived. One such town was supposed to be Nasariyah, now the scene of [numerous attacks on Americans](http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&tab=wn&q=nasiriyah+resistance&btnG=Search+News). Your understanding of Army Psyops is at least partially correct - assisting forces in acheiving their objectives is part of their mission. The smuggling in American flags idea wasn’t the Army’s, though. The Army in fact opposed it, it was the CIA’s plan. The CIA has different goals, in particular political goals. Among these they sought to justify their pre-war assessments by creating the impression of grateful Iraqis welcoming their liberators. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-you-thought-the-situation-in-iraq-couldnt-get-any-more-surreal/270239/37 "2004-10-21T17:41:06Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > If it is true, then it actually helps to prove my point. If the US military is capable of pulling off such a successful ruse, then my hat’s off to them. It proves the OP and others wrong who are suggesting that such a feat would not be possible. you realize, of course, that prior to our invasion, Saddam had no shortage of news footage of crowds cheering him on, too, right? yepsirree, takes stratgic planning aplenty to stage stuff like that. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-you-thought-the-situation-in-iraq-couldnt-get-any-more-surreal/270239/38 "2004-10-21T18:29:55Z")
A side note on that flag draped over Saddam’s statue: it has already been noted that the flag had been brought along by the company of soldiers directly involved in the occupation of the town, and that it was noteworthy because the flag had flown over the Towers on 9/11. Does this not imply that said soldiers believed they were on a mission of vengeance for 9/11? Wherever did they get such a notion? ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-you-thought-the-situation-in-iraq-couldnt-get-any-more-surreal/270239/39 "2004-10-21T18:46:40Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > A side note on that flag draped over Saddam’s statue: it has already been noted that the flag had been brought along by the company of soldiers directly involved in the occupation of the town, and that it was noteworthy because the flag had flown over the Towers on 9/11. > > Does this not imply that said soldiers believed they were on a mission of vengeance for 9/11? Wherever did they get such a notion? **Elucidator** , just a nitpick because I like the line of thought you’ve got going there. But it looks like that that flag was not flown over the [the Towers on 9/11:](http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1173186,00.html) > [@](#): > > Also unbeknown to Kuhlman, the American flag that had been draped over the statue also had an impressive pedigree. Its owner, Lieutenant Tim McLaughlin, had worked at the Pentagon, and had just left to go jogging when the building was hit in the September 11 terror attacks. From across the Potomac river, McLaughlin heard two faint thuds. “I turned around and looked at the Pentagon and saw what appeared to me to be a mushroom cloud,” he says. The next day, a family friend handed him a flag. > > McLaughlin treated it like a treasure. When the time came to go to war, he folded it into a box wrapped with duct tape, and stored it at the very bottom of his tank, waiting for the day when he could get his picture taken with it on Iraqi soil. He had tried to raise it twice before. The first time, he was shot at, and the other occasion the flag pole snapped. He was running out of time - and film - when the company commander, Captain Bryan Lewis, came by, asking McLaughlin if he wanted to have another go at putting up his flag. McLaughlin handed it over. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-you-thought-the-situation-in-iraq-couldnt-get-any-more-surreal/270239/40 "2004-10-21T19:19:47Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Does this not imply that said soldiers believed they were on a mission of vengeance for 9/11? Wherever did they get such a notion? Look like those weren’t the only soldiers who were confused about [\*\*their “real” mission](http://www.robert-fisk.com/USNavyTurds.jpg)\*\*. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-you-thought-the-situation-in-iraq-couldnt-get-any-more-surreal/270239.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/just-when-you-thought-the-situation-in-iraq-couldnt-get-any-more-surreal/270239.md?page=3)