# Justice Department worse than Nixon? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 14, 2010, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-department-worse-than-nixon/524862 "2010-01-14T01:09:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-department-worse-than-nixon/524862/1 "2010-01-14T01:09:34Z")
Any law experts want to comment? > [@](#): > > The Justice Department told the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights to drop dead yesterday. The growing controversy is over a voter-intimidation case involving the radical New Black Panther Party and why Justice is carrying water for the villains. The department’s intransigence should frighten Congress because Justice is asserting broad privileges that undermine congressional authority to oversee government’s executive branch. > > That’s why the timing is propitious today for the House Judiciary Committee to consider, and approve, a resolution of inquiry introduced by Rep. Frank Wolf, Virginia Republican. The Wolf resolution would direct Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr. to “transmit to the House of Representatives, not later than 14 days after the date of adoption of this resolution, copies of any document, memo or correspondence of the Department of Justice with regard to United States v. New Black Panther Party.” > > Democrats tempted to kill this resolution today on a party-line vote should understand that they would be setting a precedent with ramifications far beyond this case. The constitutional balance of powers would be fundamentally shifted away from Congress to an unaccountable executive, and future corruption easily could go unchecked. > > The Commission on Civil Rights, acting according to explicit statutory authority to subpoena executive departments, demanded that Justice answer 49 detailed questions, with accompanying document requests. In yesterday’s response, the department wrote that on the basis of seven distinct claimed “privileges,” it objects “to each and every Interrogatory and Document Request.” The cover letter to the commission from Justice official Joseph H. Hunt asserts a broader need to “protect against disclosures that would … undermine its ability to carry out its mission.” > > Not even President Nixon at the nadir of Watergate asserted such a broad privilege against outside review. Sustaining such a privilege would let an executive agency assert that anything it self-defines as its “mission” would be immune from scrutiny. That way lies tyranny. > > The Washington Times asked Michael Carvin, deputy assistant attorney general for both the Civil Rights Division and the Office of Legal Counsel under President Reagan, to review the Department of Justice’s privilege assertions. His response was scathing. > > “They are relying on privileges that the Office of Legal Counsel says do not exist,” Mr. Carvin asserted. “There is no privilege, for instance, saying that the Justice Department will not identify personnel working on the case. … Generally, a number of these privileges [are ones] I’ve literally never heard of.” > > Mr. Carvin specifically noted, contrary to Justice claims, “Normally there is no general attorney-client privilege unless you are dealing with the president. So a claim would have to come under the ‘work product’ or ‘deliberative process’ exemption. But ‘work product’ is very narrow, and the deliberative-process privilege is moot … once the case closes. This is especially true when the [request for the information] does not involve litigants but instead an agency with statutory responsibilities concerning civil rights.” [http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/jan/13/menacing-turn-in-black-panther-case/](http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/jan/13/menacing-turn-in-black-panther-case/) ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-department-worse-than-nixon/524862/2 "2010-01-14T01:51:29Z")
THE WASHINGTON TIMES ? Oh, I see that [a little piece of it is still around.](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/01/08/AR2010010802703.html) I wonder who the editor was that wrote the piece in the OP. He must be pretty good to still be around after 60% of his brethren got the axe. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-department-worse-than-nixon/524862/3 "2010-01-14T04:26:23Z")
The Washington Times is a right wing propaganda rag and not to be trusted. Among other things, if the Civil Rights Commission does indeed have a right to propound interrogatories on the Dept of Justice, which I find highly doubtful, then it can go to Court, likely get a Bush appointee as a judge just by random chance, and get an order to produce. The DOJ answers to the President directly, and to Congress by oversight. I highly doubt that the Civil Rights Commission, if indeed it is trying to, has the authority to issue discovery proceedings to the Attorney General. The fact is that the party out of power, like during the Bush Administration, has about zero ability to oversee the DOJ. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-department-worse-than-nixon/524862/4 "2010-01-14T05:17:03Z")
Let’s see . . . [Wikipedia,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Black_Panther_Party#Recent_controversies) if not always accurate, is usually neutral (certainly more neutral than the _Washington Times,_ and likely more accurate as well): > [@](#): > > During the 2008 presidential election, poll watchers found two New Black Panther militia members outside of a polling place in Philadelphia.[12] One of these two was a poll watcher, while the other was a New Black Panther member who had brought a nightstick. Republican poll watcher Chris Hill stated that voters had been complaining about intimidation, while the DA’s office stated that they had not been contacted by any voters.[13] > > The New Black Panther with the nightstick was escorted away by the police.[14][15] > > On January 7, 2009, the United States Department of Justice filed a civil suit against the New Black Panther Party and three of its members relating to the incident that occurred at the Philadelphia polling place during the 2008 election. The suit seeks an injunction preventing further violations of the Voting Rights Act of 1965. The suit accuses members Minister King Samir Shabazz and Jerry Jackson of being outside a polling location wearing the uniform of the New Black Panther Party for Self-Defense, and that Shabazz repeatedly brandished a police-style baton weapon.[16] **On May 15, 2009, the Obama Administration DOJ, having obtained an injunction against the defendant who had carried the weapon, dropped the suit against the remaining defendants, against the advice of its prosecutors who had worked on the case.[17]** > > According to a statement posted on the homepage of the New Black Panther Party, the Philadelphia Chapter has been suspended relating to the incident that occurred at the Philadelphia polling location during the November 2008 election.[18] Sounds like just an honest difference of opinion within the Executive Branch. For good measure I Googled on “civil rights commission new black panther party,” and I’m afraid the results are disappointing. There’s hits from the likes of American Thinker, Pajamas Media, Michelle Malkin, etc., but no credible sources. Try it and see. Sounds like a nonstory. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-department-worse-than-nixon/524862/5 "2010-01-14T07:39:18Z")
I remember that the original Black Panther Party eventually became an outright criminal organization if it hadn’t started out that way. Far right wing nut David Horowitz was a member and claims that he was oblivious to all the crime and guns until another white member turned up dead. Me, I think I would have figured it out when the guns started turning up. Even in the 60s, no legit organization needed guns to protest. ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2010, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-department-worse-than-nixon/524862/6 "2010-01-16T02:10:48Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > I remember that the original Black Panther Party eventually became an outright criminal organization if it hadn’t started out that way. Far right wing nut David Horowitz was a member and claims that he was oblivious to all the crime and guns until another white member turned up dead. Me, I think I would have figured it out when the guns started turning up. Even in the 60s, no legit organization needed guns to protest. Didn’t the BPs always have guns? I was a kid in the 60s, but that’s all I ever saw, newswise, of them, from the beginning-Berets, black leather jackets, carbines…sort of, ‘since the white police aren’t doing anything for black folk, here we are, and these weapons, in addition to being weapons, mean that we aren’t easy pickins.’ Of course, who knows what they were doing when not on display. I don’t remember any of the other junk, don’t care… Point being, the guy must have been an idiot to say he didn’t know anything about _guns_. hh ---
**Author:** ![Cliffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cliffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cliffy)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2010, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-department-worse-than-nixon/524862/7 "2010-01-16T02:22:35Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Even in the 60s, no legit organization needed guns to protest. Meh. The Black Panthers went the road of all non-professional police forces (and plenty of professional ones). Power corrupts, after all. But black people in the cities were more often victimized than protected by the white police force at the time. The need for a organization that dispensed real justice to and among black folk was incontrovertible, and in a lot of places, the state wasn’t up to or interested in the job. –Cliffy ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2010, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-department-worse-than-nixon/524862/8 "2010-01-16T03:03:14Z")
Keep moving folks. Nothing to see here. What’s a little voter intimidation among friends. It’s not like people are getting killed. The Great Speechifier has it all under control. Move along now. ---
**Author:** ![Frostillicus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Frostillicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frostillicus)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2010, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-department-worse-than-nixon/524862/9 "2010-01-16T03:25:25Z")
It’s not just worse than Nixon. This is worse than HITLER! ---
**Author:** ![What\_the](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f4b2a3/32.png) [@What\_the](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2010, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-department-worse-than-nixon/524862/10 "2010-01-16T13:55:44Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Keep moving folks. Nothing to see here. What’s a little voter intimidation among friends. It’s not like people are getting killed. The Great Speechifier has it all under control. Move along now. Agreed! Maybe we can look forward to some White Nationalists using the same tactics in 2010. I can’t wait for all of the Dem excuses for losing election.s… this Tuesday may even give them a chance for some practice. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2010, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-department-worse-than-nixon/524862/11 "2010-01-16T21:01:21Z")
> [@handsomeharry](#): > > Didn’t the BPs always have guns? I was a kid in the 60s, but that’s all I ever saw, newswise, of them, from the beginning-Berets, black leather jackets, carbines…sort of, ‘since the white police aren’t doing anything for black folk, here we are, and these weapons, in addition to being weapons, mean that we aren’t easy pickins.’ Of course, who knows what they were doing when not on display. I don’t remember any of the other junk, don’t care… Point being, the guy must have been an idiot to say he didn’t know anything about _guns_. > > hh I don’t remember exactly what his beef was, and I don’t want to misrepresent what his history and change of mind was all about. My recollection is that he didn’t know they were involved with crime. I am too young (don’t get to say that much) to remember when the BP started displaying their guns. I do remember in the early 80s when the JDL (Jewish Defense League) started displaying guns and remember thinking that couldn’t end well, and indeed, Kahane was gunned down, as were many members of the BP. I didn’t walk in the shoes of any of these people, but it strikes me as logical that the most likely way to get shot is to be known for carrying lots of guns. (I am in favor of laws allowing ownership, but don’t own myself.) Our lives are going to be lived and died closely related to what we spend our lives doing. Just seems to follow to me. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2010, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-department-worse-than-nixon/524862/12 "2010-01-16T21:19:04Z")
In any case, the [New Black Panther Party](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Black_Panther_Party) is not an institutional successor to the [original.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Panther_Party) ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2010, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-department-worse-than-nixon/524862/13 "2010-01-16T23:54:22Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > In any case, the [New Black Panther Party](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Black_Panther_Party) is not an institutional successor to the [original.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Panther_Party) Regardless of what party those imbeciles belonged to, there tactics, and the subsequent actions of Holder and the 15 Dem congressmen who voted to look away is reprehensible. The fact that those on the left on these boards are defending the decision is astounding. But, I guess it should be expected. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2010, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-department-worse-than-nixon/524862/14 "2010-01-17T00:20:09Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > is reprehensible. Is that like your new buzzward since Obama’s coronation, **magellan01**? You used it [once last year, and once this year, and not once in all the previous years back to 99](http://www.google.com/search?q=magellan01+reprehensible&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a)? What’s piqued your interest in using the term? Have things just gotten more reprehensible lately, or do you have some sort of ‘hidden’ agenda? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2010, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-department-worse-than-nixon/524862/15 "2010-01-17T00:36:43Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > Is that like your new buzzward since Obama’s coronation, **magellan01**? > You used it [once last year, and once this year, and not once in all the previous years back to 99](http://www.google.com/search?q=magellan01+reprehensible&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a)? > What’s piqued your interest in using the term? Have things just gotten more reprehensible lately, or do you have some sort of ‘hidden’ agenda? Huh? What, pray tell, is your point? If I don’t use a word for a certain period of time I lost the right to use it? What caused you to post what you did? It makes no sense. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2010, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-department-worse-than-nixon/524862/16 "2010-01-17T01:19:56Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > It makes no sense. So no hidden agenda then? No faux outrage? You just discovered a good word, and it just happens that you find you like using it when the justice department is no longer run by Alberto Gonzales? That’s like totally believable! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2010, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-department-worse-than-nixon/524862/17 "2010-01-17T01:23:20Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > So no hidden agenda then? No faux outrage? You just discovered a good word, and it just happens that you find you like using it when the justice department is no longer run by Alberto Gonzales? > That’s like totally believable! 😉 What the fuck are you talking about? I’m really not getting it. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2010, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-department-worse-than-nixon/524862/18 "2010-01-17T01:54:12Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > I don’t remember exactly what his beef was, and I don’t want to misrepresent what his history and change of mind was all about. Horowitz left the Panthers after Betty Van Patter, who he had convinced to join the Panthers, was murdered. She became the party’s bookkeeper, and had a fight with Elane Brown, the leader the Panthers, over financial irregularities, and then, not long after, went missing. Her body was found a few weeks later on the beach. The case wasn’t solved, but Horowitz believes she was killed at Brown’s orders to keep her from going to the police about misappropriation of funds by party leaders. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2010, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-department-worse-than-nixon/524862/19 "2010-01-17T02:00:08Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > What the fuck are you talking about? I’m really not getting it. That’s OK magellan01, no worries. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2010, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-department-worse-than-nixon/524862/20 "2010-01-17T03:00:47Z")
> [@](#): > > Regardless of what party those imbeciles belonged to, there tactics, and the subsequent actions of Holder and the 15 Dem congressmen who voted to look away is reprehensible. Indeed - the guy who filed an affidavit and considered it the worst voter intimidation he’d seen was a Civil Rights Lawyer: > [@](#): > > President Obama’s Justice Department continues to stonewall inquiries about why it dropped a voter intimidation case against the New Black Panther Party. > > The episode—which Bartle Bull, a former civil rights lawyer and publisher of the left-wing Village Voice, calls “the most blatant form of voter intimidation I’ve ever seen”—began on Election Day 2008. Mr. Bull and others witnessed two Black Panthers in paramilitary garb at a polling place near downtown Philadelphia. (Some of this behavior is on YouTube.) > > One of them, they say, brandished a nightstick at the entrance and pointed it at voters and both made racial threats. Mr. Bull says he heard one yell “You are about to be ruled by the black man, cracker!” > > In the first week of January, the Justice Department filed a civil lawsuit against the New Black Panther Party and three of its members, saying they violated the 1965 Voting Rights Act by scaring voters with the weapon, uniforms and racial slurs. In March, Mr. Bull submitted an affidavit at Justice’s request to support its lawsuit. [http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203550604574361071968458430.html](http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203550604574361071968458430.html) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-department-worse-than-nixon/524862.md?page=2)