# Justice for murdered nine-year-old Arizona girl? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 26, 2011, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-for-murdered-nine-year-old-arizona-girl/569099 "2011-01-26T21:23:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-for-murdered-nine-year-old-arizona-girl/569099/41 "2011-01-27T22:40:13Z")
Before you launch into your “conservatives think liberals are misguided, but libs think cons are bad people,” let me say that I know and like a number of conservatives. You’re just a jerk. Even if you were liberal, you’d be a jerk. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-for-murdered-nine-year-old-arizona-girl/569099/42 "2011-01-27T22:52:24Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > Must… not… Godwinize… > > Phew! It was a close one but I think I escaped. > > So, **Starving Artist** , how’s the weather in Self Parody Land? Come on, **jjimm** , I expect better from you. Illegal immigration is not the same as legal immigration and we’ve had plenty of Hispanics come here legally. Please tell me that you haven’t fallen for the fiction that to object to illegal immigration is equal to objecting to Hispanics as people. And if so, what would you call my neighbor who feels the same way I do on this subject and who is Hispanic and came here legally herself? I have no problem with Hispanics as people. Almost without exception every one I’ve met or gotten to know have been polite and very hard workers. But people around here have no defense for the objection that some are here illegally, so they’ve decided to blame racism for the fact that there is an objection in the first place. > [@GIGObuster](#): > > And who proposed here the notion of “the only way we can show that brown people count is to let them flood unabated into the U.S.”? What other conclusion can be drawn from the fact that around here the only apparent reason to object to illegal immigration is racism? The implication therefore is that if not for racism there would be no impediment to their coming here at will. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-for-murdered-nine-year-old-arizona-girl/569099/43 "2011-01-27T22:58:10Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Before you launch into your “conservatives think liberals are misguided, but libs think cons are bad people,” let me say that I know and like a number of conservatives. > > You’re just a jerk. Even if you were liberal, you’d be a jerk. I can honestly say that not a single person who knows me in off board life thinks I’m a jerk. And I’d wager that if we met off board you’d like me too. But then we’d both probably behave better too, like you and the conservatives you know almost certainly do amongst yourselves. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-for-murdered-nine-year-old-arizona-girl/569099/44 "2011-01-27T22:59:46Z")
What conclusion can be drawn from the fact that you felt compelled to use a thread about the brutal murder of a legal resident to go on yet another screed about illegal immigrants? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-for-murdered-nine-year-old-arizona-girl/569099/45 "2011-01-27T23:01:38Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > What other conclusion can be drawn from the fact that around here the only apparent reason to object to illegal immigration is racism? The implication therefore is that if not for racism there would be no impediment to their coming here at will. Again, not mentioned by the OP, you really have mountains of straw uh? And that once again verifies that you are not even clever enough to realize that you are not even wrong. > **[Climate Change Deniers are “Not Even Wrong”](https://greenfyre.wordpress.com/2010/12/19/climate-change-deniers-are-not-even-wrong/)** > > BPSDB Not even wrong … refers to any statement, argument or explanation that is so at odds with reality that it is considered uncorrectable. 2 + 2 = 4  … is correct 2 + 2 = 5 … is… Remove the climate denier subject and just add your inane points so far. What I do see is that racism is not necessary in the criticism of the supporters (or little bit dunces like you trying to indirectly justify the acts of jerks) and the accused of the crime, they are mostly crackpot anti-government extreme right wing nuts. > **[Forde murder trial comes to halt as witness appears in disguise](https://tucson.com/article_e9a7003a-2a4b-11e0-b26e-001cc4c002e0.html)** > > The capital murder trial of Shawna Forde came to an abrupt halt this morning when a witness in the case - one of Shawna Forde's biggest supporters - came into > [@](#): > > The capital murder trial of Shawna Forde came to an abrupt halt this morning when a witness in the case - one of Shawna Forde’s biggest supporters - came into the courtroom in disguise, violating a court order that all witnesses remain outside the courtroom. > > Laine Lawless, wearing a black wig, short trenchcoat and sunglasses, was immediately spotted by reporters and detectives. One of the detectives alerted prosecutor Rick Unklesbay, who immediately asked to approach the bench of Judge John Leonardo. > > The jurors were quickly ushered out of the room and Leonardo asked Lawless if she did not understand him when he told her on Tuesday that she and all other witnesses are not allowed in the courtroom until after the attorneys release them from their subpoenas. > > Lawless told the judge she understood his order, but objected to it as she is a “citizen reporter” who has a right to be in the courtroom. She insisted she was told she was not going to be called as a witness, something the attorneys for both sides denied telling her. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-for-murdered-nine-year-old-arizona-girl/569099/46 "2011-01-27T23:07:10Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > You guys are priceless. You champion activity that is not only illegal to begin with but brings along with it all sorts of other crimes, and then when that flaunting of the law and its associated crime very understandably causes fear and resentment in the local populace, you blame the populace for their fear and resentment and attribute it all to racism. […] > > You guys always blame the symptoms when you’re the reason for the disease. Nice try **Starving Artist** , but blaming the bleeding-heart liberals won’t work on this issue. The real reason there are so many illegal immigrants in the US is because hard-headed profit-seeking employers want to hire them at low wages, and savings-seeking consumers want to buy the low-priced goods and services that low-wage workers produce. It’s got nothing to do with any “championing” of illegal immigration _per se_ by liberals. If it weren’t for the eagerness of US employers to hire cheap undocumented workers, liberal groups could be lining up from here to Cancun and saying mean things about Arizona anti-immigrant groups until they were blue in the face, without inspiring a single non-US-citizen to set foot across the border. Moreover, as other posters have pointed out, liberals in general are not in favor of illegal immigration. We just don’t think that the existence of illegal immigration is a valid justification for the amount of hysteria and hatred spewed about it by many conservatives. Sure, experiencing fear and resentment on account of illegal immigration is painful, but it’s not an excuse for acting like a xenophobic asshole, much less a murderer. (Oh, and by the way, the word you’re looking for is “flouting”, not “flaunting”.) ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-for-murdered-nine-year-old-arizona-girl/569099/47 "2011-01-27T23:21:01Z")
From the article > [@](#): > > Prosecutors say Forde organized the May 30, 2009, raid on the home in Arivaca because she believed Flores, 29, was involved in drug trafficking and wanted to seize cash or drugs to help fund her border-protection group, the Minutemen American Defense. So she was going to take their illegal drugs or dirty money… to fund her fight against people supposedly dealing in drugs and ill-gotten gains. Maybe she heard they were going to murder children, too, and wanted in on that as well. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-for-murdered-nine-year-old-arizona-girl/569099/48 "2011-01-27T23:35:14Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I can honestly say that not a single person who knows me in off board life thinks I’m a jerk. And I’d wager that if we met off board you’d like me too. But then we’d both probably behave better too, like you and the conservatives you know almost certainly do amongst yourselves. Oh, I don’t doubt that. I wouldn’t call you a jerk to your face. 😉 But really, you have a tendency to blame everything bad that happens anywhere on liberalism, in some way shape or form. It shouldn’t be a surprise that people react to that. But if we came across each other in real life, I’d certainly buy you a beer… if for no other reason than to rub it in that the librul redistribution of wealth you complain about so much, and which pays my salary, has benefitted you, too. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2011, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-for-murdered-nine-year-old-arizona-girl/569099/49 "2011-01-28T00:07:42Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Come on, **jjimm** , I expect better from you. Illegal immigration is not the same as legal immigration and we’ve had plenty of Hispanics come here legally. Please tell me that you haven’t fallen for the fiction that to object to illegal immigration is equal to objecting to Hispanics as people. And if so, what would you call my neighbor who feels the same way I do on this subject and who is Hispanic and came here legally herself? I have no problem with Hispanics as people. Almost without exception every one I’ve met or gotten to know have been polite and very hard workers. But people around here have no defense for the objection that some are here illegally, so they’ve decided to blame racism for the fact that there is an objection in the first place. What I was reacting to was you saying that it’s the fault of the victims for making people angry - not the murderer for murdering. One could justify many atrocities in the same way - Al Qaeda wouldn’t have attacked the US if the US hadn’t made them angry by interfering in sacred lands, etc. etc. The way I read it, you blamed a nine-year-old murder victim for her own death. (I am not, however, accusing you of racism.) ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2011, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-for-murdered-nine-year-old-arizona-girl/569099/50 "2011-01-28T00:21:31Z")
No, that is waaay off base, **jjimm**. I’ll try to explain later. And thanks **Ravenman** and **Kimstu**. I’ll try to answer your posts later too. (And thanks for the vocab lesson **Kimstu**. “Flouting” is indeed what I meant. :)) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2011, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-for-murdered-nine-year-old-arizona-girl/569099/51 "2011-01-28T00:35:46Z")
**Starving Artist** , hypothetical. You live south of the border, and have trouble feeding your kids. You’ve tried, and failed to immigrate legally, however you could immigrate illegally and feed your family, and give them a better, safer life. Remember all the American funded crime in Mexico. Which action do you undertake, do you let your kids starve, or do you sneak across the border? ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2011, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-for-murdered-nine-year-old-arizona-girl/569099/52 "2011-01-28T00:35:57Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I always know I’m scoring points when instead of trying to contest what I’ve said, the ‘usual suspects’ resort to making fun of me as a person. > > Thanks for the affirmation, guys. 🙂 Doesn’t _this_ post contain you making fun of people as people and not a contestation of what they’ve said? I mean, it’s a terrible metric (how do you tell the assholes from the defeated?) but so far as scoring points go, i’m not sure stating it as you have isn’t letting in a few own goals yourself. It’s like saying “I know i’m winning when you guys start swearing, fuckers!”. ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2011, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-for-murdered-nine-year-old-arizona-girl/569099/53 "2011-01-28T03:36:33Z")
In other words: no, there will not be justice for the murdered nine-year-old girl, because Arizona judges and juries are too much like Starving Artist. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2011, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-for-murdered-nine-year-old-arizona-girl/569099/54 "2011-01-28T08:41:45Z")
> [@Kal](#): > > Which really just shows us that you’re a pointless little man whose main reason for existing on this board is because you love the sound of your own typing. Indeed, but considering Starving Artist’s general track record of utter redundancy, is anyone surprised? Carbon is the 4th most common element in the universe, yet SA is effectively a waste of the stuff. It takes a rare mind to seize on an event like this - a truly horrible incident that there is no excusing - and use it as a platform for proselytizing about how it’s all the fault of illegal immigrants. SA should, of course, be truly ashamed of themselves, but that would take at least a minimum level of self awareness. Instead, when called about it, they hide behind claims it’s persecution by “usual suspects”. Hopefully the evidence for this case is sound. If so, and a court finds the case against Shawna Forde conclusive, then I really do hope the death penalty is applied. ---
**Author:** ![Khaki\_Campbell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9de053/32.png) [@Khaki\_Campbell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khaki_Campbell)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2011, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-for-murdered-nine-year-old-arizona-girl/569099/55 "2011-01-28T12:33:25Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > You live south of the border, and have trouble feeding your kids. […] > Which action do you undertake, do you let your kids starve, or do you sneak across the border? So WONT SOMEBADAY THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!111!!! is OK when it’s poow opwessed brown people (_cries_) ? Ah, liberal drivel, always surprising me. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2011, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-for-murdered-nine-year-old-arizona-girl/569099/56 "2011-01-28T14:26:48Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Nope. Sorry. I said the assholes behind the deaths of that little girl and her father deserved to be offed with no “could” about it. And they deserve to have everything down to the gold in their fillings confiscated and given to whichever Hispanic group is found to be the closest thing to the exact opposite of their cause. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2011, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-for-murdered-nine-year-old-arizona-girl/569099/57 "2011-01-28T14:30:40Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Put a stop to the victimization and you’ll put a stop to the hatred and fear. It’s just that simple. So, if the Joooos hadn’t stabbed Germany in the back in WWI and stolen all its wealth in the postwar crash, Hitler would have found no following. Hokay. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2011, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-for-murdered-nine-year-old-arizona-girl/569099/58 "2011-01-28T14:33:58Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Is that “waffling”, as such? I thought he was _dead certain_ society has gone to hell since the fifties, and “waffling” meant ambivalence, uncertainty or indecisiveness. I gather that the “waffling” comment is a reference to SA’s habit of attempting to slink away from the [unfortunate implications](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/UnfortunateImplications) of his statements when somebody calls him on it. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2011, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-for-murdered-nine-year-old-arizona-girl/569099/59 "2011-01-28T14:37:23Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I can honestly say that not a single person who knows me in off board life thinks I’m a jerk. And I’d wager that if we met off board you’d like me too. You know, I’d actually have an iota more respect for you if you actually **did** spout the same kind of crap to people face-to-face. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2011, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-for-murdered-nine-year-old-arizona-girl/569099/60 "2011-01-28T14:42:45Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > So, if the Joooos hadn’t stabbed Germany in the back in WWI and stolen all its wealth in the postwar crash, Hitler would have found no following. Hokay. That’s what I was avoiding doing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-for-murdered-nine-year-old-arizona-girl/569099.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-for-murdered-nine-year-old-arizona-girl/569099.md?page=4)