# Justice is done **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 14, 2013, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-is-done/655693 "2013-04-14T16:59:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-is-done/655693/1 "2013-04-14T16:59:26Z")
> **[Jury convicts Minneapolis SWAT team leader for knockout punch](https://www.startribune.com/jury-convicts-minneapolis-swat-team-leader-for-knockout-punch/202864901/)** > > The Minneapolis police SWAT team leader faces nearly five years in prison under state sentencing guidelines. Local SWAT Team Leader punched a guy in the head (video in link, watch left side) and then ran away like the cowardly bitch he is. Victim was on life support for 40 days and underwent 3 brain surgeries. _“Clifford faces a term of seven years under state sentencing guidelines. Two-thirds of that would be served in prison, the rest on supervised release. He was convicted of first- and third-degree assault, both felonies, and fifth-degree misdemeanor assault. Convicted felons are not eligible to hold a Minnesota peace officer license.”_ Now we just have to wait to see if the judge follows the guidelines or refuses to send the bastard to prison. In his first court appearance, he had a lot of cops there for support and they were supposedly very supportive of his actions in the incident. Given how much this state rolls over and lets Law Enforcement do whatever it wants, gaining this conviction is a huge major deal. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-is-done/655693/2 "2013-04-14T17:00:27Z")
Oh, and the bastards at Fark didn’t green-light this. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-is-done/655693/3 "2013-04-14T20:02:20Z")
Good on that DA and on the system supporting him! I wish I felt the same thing would happen in Nevada but I know it wouldn’t. Here, the cop would never even be charged with a crime. Heck, the victim would likely be charged for hitting the cop’s fist with his face. ---
**Author:** ![Palooka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/palooka/32/2902_2.png) [@Palooka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Palooka)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-is-done/655693/4 "2013-04-14T20:03:24Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Oh, and the bastards at Fark didn’t green-light this. Mega lol @ your internet crazy. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-is-done/655693/5 "2013-04-15T01:57:00Z")
Ah, I see what’s wrong with this thread. No recreational outrage. ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-is-done/655693/6 "2013-04-15T07:34:31Z")
You know, if we stop our keepers of the peace from bashing in the heads of people, what’s next? Dogs marrying declawed cats? Toilet paper rolls placed vertically on a stand!? ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-is-done/655693/7 "2013-04-15T12:06:52Z")
> [@drewtwo99](#): > > Toilet paper rolls placed vertically on a stand!? They already got to you, didn’t they? ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-is-done/655693/8 "2013-04-15T13:07:26Z")
> [@drewtwo99](#): > > Toilet paper rolls placed vertically on a stand!? Worth a separate thread. Heck, an entire web site. [verticaltoiletpaper.wordpress.com](http://verticaltoiletpaper.wordpress.com) is available… ---
**Author:** ![toofs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4491bb/32.png) [@toofs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toofs)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2013, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-is-done/655693/9 "2013-04-16T01:43:35Z")
Amazing, a police officer might actually go to jail for violently abusing his authority. I will believe it when I see it. The police officers who attempted to murder (not identify or arrest) the occupants of the Toyota Tacoma pickup truck and the Honda Ridgeline in the whole Dorner fiasco will not be punished. Those were not valid escalations of force. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-is-done/655693/10 "2013-07-12T17:40:51Z")
> [@toofs](#): > > Amazing, a police officer might actually go to jail for violently abusing his authority. I will believe it when I see it. [Believe](http://abcnewspapers.com/2013/07/11/clifford-sentenced-43-months-for-assault-conviction/) [it!](http://kstp.com/news/stories/S3095180.shtml?cat=1) Sentenced to 43 months. He has to serve a minimum of 2 years and 4 months in State Prison before being eligible for release. In another article, his attorney was talking (pre-sentencing) about how they can’t send him to jail because he’s a cop, and he’ll be in constant danger. Oh, and he has a police related tatoo on his arm, so that will make him a target. Cry me a river. As pointed out in this and other sources, he is now a Convicted Felon. He can no longer be a police officer, own firearms or vote. He was a cop for 20 years. I believe that he lost his pension, but I’m not 100% sure of that. ---
**Author:** ![11811](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/1/9d8465/32.png) [@11811](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/11811)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-is-done/655693/11 "2013-07-12T18:31:59Z")
> [@drewtwo99](#): > > You know, if we stop our keepers of the peace from bashing in the heads of people, what’s next? Dogs marrying declawed cats? Toilet paper rolls placed vertically on a stand!? Santorums and Savages living together? ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-is-done/655693/12 "2013-07-12T18:35:19Z")
> [@toofs](#): > > Amazing, a police officer might actually go to jail for violently abusing his authority. I will believe it when I see it. Haven’t seen much about what was going on, but what abuse of authority? From what little I know he was abusing the privilege of being a human being, but not acting under the colour of his authority. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-is-done/655693/13 "2013-07-12T19:10:34Z")
I don’t think “justice” is completely done, at least not yet: [ > [@](#): > > An Anoka County Jury April 13 found the 48-year-old Clifford guilty of first, third and fifth degree assault. Anoka County District Court Judge Lawrence Johnson only sentenced Clifford for the first-degree assault conviction while no sentence was pronounced for the other two charges. > > Clifford must also pay $3,377.18 in restitution. ]([Clifford sentenced 43 months for assault conviction](http://abcnewspapers.com/2013/07/11/clifford-sentenced-43-months-for-assault-conviction/)) So no sentence (yet?) for the 3rd and 5th degree assault convictions and the guy’s 3 brain surgeries are only gonna cost the perp $3400, not mention whatever care he will need subsequently. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-is-done/655693/14 "2013-07-12T19:16:41Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > Haven’t seen much about what was going on, but what abuse of authority? From what little I know he was abusing the privilege of being a human being, but not acting under the colour of his authority. Correct: [ > [@](#): > > Following the jury verdict, Minneapolis Police Chief Janeé Harteau said, “This is truly a tragic situation for everyone involved. The actions of David Clifford, although off-duty at the time of the altercation, are not consistent with our department core values and high standards." ]([http://kstp.com/news/stories/S3095180.shtml?cat=1](http://kstp.com/news/stories/S3095180.shtml?cat=1)) Many officers, tho, feel that they are “always cops” and that their job elevates them above the rest of us citizens, even when they are not in uniform or on the clock. There’s no audio on the video recording of the fight, so we don’t know what their verbal interaction included before the punch was thrown. It’s possible that he invoked his employment as a reason for Mr. Vander Lee to acquiesce to his demands. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-is-done/655693/15 "2013-07-12T19:24:06Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > So no sentence (yet?) for the 3rd and 5th degree assault convictions and the guy’s 3 brain surgeries are only gonna cost the perp $3400, not mention whatever care he will need subsequently. Restitution varies by state and will depend on both how much the perp has left to pay and state guidelines. And it would only cover out of pocket, so it would also depend on how much of the bill the insurance company already footed. Just a WAG, but the cost of his defense probably drained a good portion of what might have gone to the victim. I can see the victim and the insurance company coming after whatever he’s got left in a civil trial, though. And that would probably include what he makes after getting out of prison. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-is-done/655693/16 "2013-07-12T19:50:23Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > . . . Many officers, tho, feel that they are “always cops” and that their job elevates them above the rest of us citizens, even when they are not in uniform or on the clock. . . . Some laws support this idea. There is often an extra punishment given to someone who assaults or murders a policeman, since the crime is considered (by many) to be an attack upon society as well as an attack upon the individual. These laws often apply even when the policeman is off-duty. In compensation, I would hold that when policemen commit crimes, they ought to be subject to extra punishment, for pretty much the same reason. It is an “attack upon society” by criminalizing the enforcement power of authority. It’s making authority into something bad, not good. That hurts all of us, and needs to be punished very severely. (I suggest implanting vacuum-breathing apparatus and sending them to Titan.) ---
**Author:** ![Balance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@Balance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balance)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-is-done/655693/17 "2013-07-12T19:58:59Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I don’t think “justice” is completely done, at least not yet: > [url=[Clifford sentenced 43 months for assault conviction](http://abcnewspapers.com/2013/07/11/clifford-sentenced-43-months-for-assault-conviction/)] > So no sentence (yet?) for the 3rd and 5th degree assault convictions and the guy’s 3 brain surgeries are only gonna cost the perp $3400, not mention whatever care he will need subsequently. The convictions on 3rd and 5th degree assault are a bit confusing to me. A quick googling tells me that in Minnesota, the 1st degree involves “great bodily harm or use of deadly force”, 3rd “substantial bodily harm” (or assault on a minor, which is irrelevant here), and 5th “assault where no substantial harm is inflicted”. It seems to me that the 3rd and 5th would be lesser included offenses. Maybe that’s why no separate sentence was issued for them? ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-is-done/655693/18 "2013-07-12T20:21:14Z")
> [@drewtwo99](#): > > Toilet paper rolls placed vertically on a stand!? Keeps the cats from shredding the paper. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-is-done/655693/19 "2013-07-12T20:24:29Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Some laws support this idea. There is often an extra punishment given to someone who assaults or murders a policeman, since the crime is considered (by many) to be an attack upon society as well as an attack upon the individual. These laws often apply even when the policeman is off-duty. > > In compensation, I would hold that when policemen commit crimes, they ought to be subject to extra punishment, for pretty much the same reason. It is an “attack upon society” by criminalizing the enforcement power of authority. It’s making authority into something bad, not good. That hurts all of us, and needs to be punished very severely. > > (I suggest implanting vacuum-breathing apparatus and sending them to Titan.) I concur that police officers should be punished more harshly for crimes than a regular citizen would be, and arrived at my conclusions (years ago, btw) by the same logic you employed. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-is-done/655693/20 "2013-07-12T20:25:30Z")
> [@Balance](#): > > The convictions on 3rd and 5th degree assault are a bit confusing to me. A quick googling tells me that in Minnesota, the 1st degree involves “great bodily harm or use of deadly force”, 3rd “substantial bodily harm” (or assault on a minor, which is irrelevant here), and 5th “assault where no substantial harm is inflicted”. It seems to me that the 3rd and 5th would be lesser included offenses. Maybe that’s why no separate sentence was issued for them? I don’t know, but I’d like to know more and see if your supposition is possibly correct.