# Justice Kennedy retiring **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 27, 2018, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-kennedy-retiring/816857 "2018-06-27T18:14:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f8ce5/32.png) [@The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Peyote_Coyote)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2018, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-kennedy-retiring/816857/181 "2018-06-29T04:44:19Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > It’s fascinating how we worship a Constitution that has already failed once and is probably going to fail again in our lifetimes. I think, asahi, that we need to hold a second Constitutional Convention and revise it. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2018, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-kennedy-retiring/816857/182 "2018-06-29T04:55:41Z")
All I’ve been reading today is crap about how the retirement of Justice is such a big deal – it’s totally fucking not a big deal. The Supreme Court was lost the moment Trump got elected. There was never, ever, ever a shred of doubt about that. And Kennedy was never really much of a moderate. Let’s stop the fucking Justice Kennedy worship. I’m glad he’s gone and I hope the Senate confirms Alex Jones as its next justice. It might force progressives to get off their fucking asses and vote once in a while - and to vote for people who can actually win elections, not for people like Ralph Nader and Jill Stein. Justice Kennedy’s retirement is actually a great thing for the progressive moment. One less lie we can tell ourselves that “Everything’s gonna be okay.” ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2018, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-kennedy-retiring/816857/183 "2018-06-29T05:47:25Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Insist again that you get to define justice, then tell me how that’s working out in the real world. > > Go ahead. I’ll wait. > > Nothing seems to be changing. > > Hmmmm. The futility of my resistance has no bearing on my duty. But you! You have so _much_ to be proud of! Yet your gloating seems a mite hollow, somehow, as if the means used for your cherished goals are not as splendid as you might have wished. But that’s silly, you get what you can any way you can! Have you attended any of The Leader’s pep rallies, to let yourself be absorbed into your new Party? Go on, be assimilated! Which reminds, Trump isn’t Catholic, but is that any barrier to canonization? Fit in really well with that Peace Prize! ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2018, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-kennedy-retiring/816857/184 "2018-06-29T06:48:42Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > All I’ve been reading today is crap about how the retirement of Justice is such a big deal – it’s totally fucking not a big deal. The Supreme Court was lost the moment Trump got elected. There was never, ever, ever a shred of doubt about that. And Kennedy was never really much of a moderate. Let’s stop the fucking Justice Kennedy worship. I’m glad he’s gone and I hope the Senate confirms Alex Jones as its next justice. It might force progressives to get off their fucking asses and vote once in a while - and to vote for people who can actually win elections, not for people like Ralph Nader and Jill Stein. Justice Kennedy’s retirement is actually a great thing for the progressive moment. One less lie we can tell ourselves that “Everything’s gonna be okay.” ++ I herewith relinquish my copyright on the following political slogan. No charge: Just buy me a beer to cry in if I ever make it back to the United States of Trumpia: **Make America Human Again** ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2018, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-kennedy-retiring/816857/185 "2018-06-29T12:03:10Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > It’s fascinating how we worship a Constitution that has already failed once and is probably going to fail again in our lifetimes. The alternative is a tyranny of then masses. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2018, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-kennedy-retiring/816857/186 "2018-06-29T12:07:29Z")
There’s really nothing we can do to prevent Trump from installing another conservative justice. You can’t spend all your time being SJW. At some point you have to start winning elections. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2018, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-kennedy-retiring/816857/187 "2018-06-29T12:10:01Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > All I’ve been reading today is crap about how the retirement of Justice is such a big deal – it’s totally fucking not a big deal. The Supreme Court was lost the moment Trump got elected. There was never, ever, ever a shred of doubt about that. And Kennedy was never really much of a moderate. Let’s stop the fucking Justice Kennedy worship. I’m glad he’s gone and I hope the Senate confirms Alex Jones as its next justice. It might force progressives to get off their fucking asses and vote once in a while - and to vote for people who can actually win elections, not for people like Ralph Nader and Jill Stein. Justice Kennedy’s retirement is actually a great thing for the progressive moment. One less lie we can tell ourselves that “Everything’s gonna be okay.” Kennedy was big on gay marriage. As for nominating libbies who can get elected? If the NYC primary showed us anything, it’s that that isn’t going to happen. I suspect 2020 will similar at the presidential level, an unelectable socialist like Lieawatha. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2018, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-kennedy-retiring/816857/188 "2018-06-29T12:58:36Z")
Another fun fact. The campaign to block Garland and seat Gorsuch was largely funded by a single 28.5 million dollar [anonymous donation](https://maplight.org/story/tax-returns-identify-dark-money-organization-as-source-of-gop-supreme-court-attacks/) that to this day has not been identified. The same group [donated](https://www.opensecrets.org/news/2018/05/group-that-spent-millions-to-boost-gorsuch-also-paid-mysterious-inaugural-donor/) significant money to Trump’s inauguration. The money for the inauguration which [nobody knows where it is](http://www.newsweek.com/trump-inauguration-money-still-missing-783934). ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2018, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-kennedy-retiring/816857/189 "2018-06-29T13:17:41Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > Another fun fact. The campaign to block Garland and seat Gorsuch was largely funded by a single 28.5 million dollar [anonymous donation](https://maplight.org/story/tax-returns-identify-dark-money-organization-as-source-of-gop-supreme-court-attacks/) that to this day has not been identified. Man, I wish I could get someone to pay me $28.5M to do what I wanted to do anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2018, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-kennedy-retiring/816857/190 "2018-06-29T13:18:38Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Man, I wish I could get someone to pay me $28.5M to do what I wanted to do anyway. You would have to account for where the money came from. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2018, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-kennedy-retiring/816857/191 "2018-06-29T13:19:57Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > The alternative is a tyranny of then masses. Or civil war, which was the result of the original Constitution’s failure. The Constitution isn’t the reason the U.S. still exists today; we exist because the Union armies annihilated the Southern states, compelled them to live by the rules of the Union, and gradually integrated them into the U.S. economy. But the flaws of the Constitution and our cultural problems were never truly resolved. And that could lead us to collapse. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2018, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-kennedy-retiring/816857/192 "2018-06-29T13:28:11Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > Kennedy was big on gay marriage. > > As for nominating libbies who can get elected? If the NYC primary showed us anything, it’s that that isn’t going to happen. I suspect 2020 will similar at the presidential level, an unelectable socialist like Lieawatha. So that’s it? That’s the gift we should be thankful for? Don’t get me wrong: I appreciate his open-mindedness on that one issue, but on nearly all of the major decisions, Kennedy has sided with corporate power over human rights. All the while, I’m keeping in mind the fact that his job is to interpret the Constitution, not to impose a particular worldview on the rest of us - I get that. But I find it appalling that his legal opinion essentially effectuates the Constitution as an instrument that favors oligarchy over democracy, and government power (particularly presidential power) over individual liberty (gay marriage not withstanding). One could legitimately argue that John Roberts has been just as moderate as Kennedy. And I’m not going to sniffle when Roberts decides to retire. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2018, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-kennedy-retiring/816857/193 "2018-06-29T13:36:23Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > Another fun fact. The campaign to block Garland and seat Gorsuch was largely funded by a single 28.5 million dollar [anonymous donation](https://maplight.org/story/tax-returns-identify-dark-money-organization-as-source-of-gop-supreme-court-attacks/) that to this day has not been identified. The same group [donated](https://www.opensecrets.org/news/2018/05/group-that-spent-millions-to-boost-gorsuch-also-paid-mysterious-inaugural-donor/) significant money to Trump’s inauguration. The money for the inauguration which [nobody knows where it is](http://www.newsweek.com/trump-inauguration-money-still-missing-783934). And that is why this country is going to be fucked unless there is an overwhelming rebellion at the ballot box in these next two election cycles. The oligarchs can just drop tens of million dollars to lean on their proxies in congress. **Again, there is a reason the Republican party has become a Trump cult and gone into full-on authoritarian mode**. People need to understand the connection between the oligarchs and their ownership of the Republican party. And people need to understand the shared interest that American and Western oligarchs have with Russian oligarchs and kleptocrats (i.e. Putin) in disrupting what’s left of American democracy. They don’t want to kill off American democracy entirely, as they want at least some political legitimacy for what they’re going to do to us over the next 10 years. They want at least the appearance of a democracy, but in actuality, they want a democracy and a legal system that is under their full control. They want the power to rig the political system so they can keep the power to create an economic system that drains the general population of wealth, which in turn strips us of our power to resist through legitimate means. And they want to control the criminal justice system so they can jail their enemies. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2018, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-kennedy-retiring/816857/194 "2018-06-29T13:46:28Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > And that is why this country is going to be fucked unless there is an overwhelming rebellion at the ballot box in these next two election cycles. The oligarchs can just drop tens of million dollars to lean on their proxies in congress. **Again, there is a reason the Republican party has become a Trump cult and gone into full-on authoritarian mode**. People need to understand the connection between the oligarchs and their ownership of the Republican party. And people need to understand the shared interest that American and Western oligarchs have with Russian oligarchs and kleptocrats (i.e. Putin) in disrupting what’s left of American democracy. They don’t want to kill off American democracy entirely, as they want at least some political legitimacy for what they’re going to do to us over the next 10 years. They want at least the appearance of a democracy, but in actuality, they want a democracy and a legal system that is under their full control. They want the power to rig the political system so they can keep the power to create an economic system that drains the general population of wealth, which in turn strips us of our power to resist through legitimate means. And they want to control the criminal justice system so they can jail their enemies. I would have rolled my eyes and said something about a tinfoil hat five years ago… ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2018, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-kennedy-retiring/816857/195 "2018-06-29T15:47:41Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Gorsuch’s two colleagues, faced with a choice of reading the law neutrally or reading in a way to side with an unjustly-fired trucker, chose to side with the trucker. > > But Gorsuch was, in my view, correctly and neutrally reading the law. The Chevron evaluation should have stopped at its first prong; the statute did speak plainly to the question at hand. > > His colleagues agree with you, but they do so because they prioritized what they viewed as the right result – helping a poor trucker who was fired for bad reasons. And to do this, they took pains to distinguish language in a way that, in all fairness, is not neutral. > > The trucker claimed he was fired for “refusing to operate” an unsafe vehicle. > > But that’s not why he was fired. He was fired for disconnecting the trailer and driving away. The trailer was the problem: the brake lines for the trailer had frozen. > > So while it’s true, in a sense, that he “refused to operate,” the unsafe trailer, that’s not why he was fired. He was fired because he was ordered to stay in the truck until repair crews arrived. He was afraid if he did that he’d freeze. So he disobeyed that order, disconnected the truck, and drove away. > > That’s a very sensible thing for trucker Maddin to have done, but it in no real way can be neutrally described as “refusing to operate.” He was told to stay, and he left. > > Why was “refusal to operate,” so important? Because the Surface Transportation Assistance Act has a whistleblower provision that immunizes from firing someone who refuses to operate unsafe equipment. There was no other law that might save this guy’s job. > > So two judges weighed the equities, and decided to stretch “refused to operate,” to cover driving away against orders to stay, because it was done to avoid freezing. > > See the problem here? It’s a horrible dilemma to face, but that dilemma is not solved by the Surface Transportation Assistance Act. The STAA does many good things, but one thing it does not do is save a guy’s job if he’s fired for ignoring orders to stay in sub-zero weather. That’s just not one of its provisions. > > Gorsuch decided the case on the text of the law. Murphy and McHugh decided it based on their idea of justice, bending the law to make the case come out “fairly.” Short version … blah blah blah and lots of bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2018, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-kennedy-retiring/816857/196 "2018-06-29T15:54:59Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Short version … blah blah blah and lots of bullshit. Not, you notice, a rebuttal. He was fired for leaving his unsafe broken trailer by the side of the road and driving away. He sued under a law that protects him from being fired only if he “refuses to operate” unsafe equipment. He was not fired for refusing to operate unsafe equipment. What is your rebuttal? ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2018, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-kennedy-retiring/816857/197 "2018-06-29T15:59:29Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > Fun fact. One of Trump’s facilitators of shady loans through Deutsche Bank is[Justin Kennedy](https://www.ft.com/content/8c6d9dca-882c-11e7-bf50-e1c239b45787), son of Anthony Kennedy. Well no shit. in 2007 Kushner Companies purchased “an aluminum-clad office tower in Midtown Manhattan, for a record price of $1.8 billion. This deal was considered a classic example of reckless underwriting. The transaction was so highly leveraged that the cash flow from rents amounted to only 65 percent of the debt service. the deal ran into trouble. Instead of rising, rents declined as the recession took hold, and new leases were scarce. In 2010, the loan was transferred to a special servicer on the assumption that a default would occur once reserve funds being used to subsidize the shortfall were bled dry. But the story may yet have a happy ending for Kushner, a family-owned business that moved its headquarters from Florham Park, N.J., to 666 Fifth, its first major acquisition in Manhattan.” Who came to the rescue? None other than LNR Property, the company whose CEO at the time was **Justin Kennedy**. So Kennedy’s son bailed out Jared on the 666 property, and also Trump himself while he was at Deutschbank. During Mr. Kennedy’s tenure, Deutsche Bank became Mr. Trump’s most important lender, dispensing well over $1 billion in loans to him for the renovation and construction of skyscrapers in New York and Chicago at a time other mainstream banks were wary of doing business with him because of his troubled business history. To the tune of what … over 2.5 BILLION?? ALSO!!! DeutshceBank was fined $630 million for a $10 BILLION Russian money laundering scheme in 2017 But as we have seen there’s no collusion, not even Russian collusion in the Trump regime. UH HUH :rolleyes: * * * Last month, Senator Charles E. Grassley of Iowa, the Republican chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, went on Hugh Hewitt’s radio program to issue an urgent plea. “My message to any one of the nine Supreme Court justices,” he said, was, “‘If you’re thinking about quitting this year, do it yesterday.’” Mr. Grassley said speed was of the essence in light of the midterm elections in November. “If we have a Democrat Senate,” he said, “you’re never going to get the kind of people that are strict constructionists.” * * * The Republicans wanted Kennedy gone. For purely political reasons, not ethical or moral reasons. He may go down as perhaps the dirtiest judge of the last century. I would say “good riddance” but Trump is sure to have someone even worse waiting in the wings. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2018, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-kennedy-retiring/816857/198 "2018-06-29T16:07:29Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > So that’s it? That’s the gift we should be thankful for? > > Don’t get me wrong: I appreciate his open-mindedness on that one issue, but on nearly all of the major decisions, Kennedy has sided with corporate power over human rights. All the while, I’m keeping in mind the fact that his job is to interpret the Constitution, not to impose a particular worldview on the rest of us - I get that. But I find it appalling that his legal opinion essentially effectuates the Constitution as an instrument that favors oligarchy over democracy, and government power (particularly presidential power) over individual liberty (gay marriage not withstanding). One could legitimately argue that John Roberts has been just as moderate as Kennedy. And I’m not going to sniffle when Roberts decides to retire. But why does your “I fid it appalling,” somehow translate into, "…and therefore judges should use their own better ideas about how things should go instead of what’s written in the law? In other word,s you acknowledge that judges’ job is to interpret the Constitution, not to impose a particular worldview on the rest of us. At one time, the Constitution explicitly acknowledge legal slavery. It also mandated that senators were selected by their state legislatures, and not directly by the people in the states. Surely these were also offenses against democracy and favored oligarchs, yes? Would you have wanted a judge to say, “Yes, the Constitution says this, but I think it’s wrong, so I’m going to order it be stopped?” I say that a judge who does that actually flies in the face of our democracy. Art V of the Constitution specifies that the way to substantively change the law is by amendment. That’s why the Thirteenth Amendment exists for slavery; that’s why the Seventeenth Amendment exists for direct popular election of senators. “But it’s almost impossible to pass an amendment to enforce the changes I want!” I hear you cry. Then: you don’t get them. You speak of a love for democracy, but can it be love when it’s only for delivering results you like? You’re full of passionate certitude that your way is better, but democracy means not just being certain, but convincing enough of the rest of the voting country that your way is better. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2018, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-kennedy-retiring/816857/199 "2018-06-29T16:18:02Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > I suspect 2020 will similar at the presidential level, an unelectable socialist like Lieawatha. I didn’t think anyone could possibly come up with a more moronic epithet for her than “Pocahontas,” but you little scamps are full of surprises. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2018, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-kennedy-retiring/816857/200 "2018-06-29T16:18:43Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Not, you notice, a rebuttal. > > He was fired for leaving his unsafe broken trailer by the side of the road and driving away. > > He sued under a law that protects him from being fired only if he “refuses to operate” unsafe equipment. > > He was not fired for refusing to operate unsafe equipment. > > What is your rebuttal? My rebuttal is “no duty to fucking die for the company”. How’s that? P.S. Fuck Gorsuch. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-kennedy-retiring/816857.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-kennedy-retiring/816857.md?page=11)