# Justice League International vs. the Defenders **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 17, 2004, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-league-international-vs-the-defenders/280389 "2004-12-17T18:23:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Don\_Draper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Don\_Draper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_Draper)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-league-international-vs-the-defenders/280389/1 "2004-12-17T18:23:47Z")
I think the mid-80s, played-for-laughs, focus on offbeat characters “JLI” is a pretty good match-up against Marvel’s much-missed “the Defenders” series. (For those young’ns out there who missed out, “the Defenders” were touted as a ‘non-team’, in that they had no set charter, official roster, permanent headquarters, etc. They were more like a bunch of second-tier but entertaining characters (and the Hulk) who hung out together and had really, really strange adventures: In one memorable issue, the Hulk and team-mate Valkyrie went shopping for baked beans (you just had to read it, but it was hilarious!) Also, the usual suspects in each book match up pretty well – - the Defenders usually included Marvel’s sorceror supreme Dr. Strange / JLI had DC’s premiere mystic Dr. Fate. - the Defenders had two gal pals, one uptight (Valkyrie), one fun-loving (Hellcat) / JLI had two gal pals, one uptight (Ice), one fun-loving (Fire). - the Defenders starred the Hulk (an irascible, green-hued anti-hero) / JLI had Guy Gardner (an obnoxious, green-clad anti-hero) - the Defenders featured a somber, color-coded heroine who tragically sacrificed herself for the good of humanity (Red Guardian) / JLI had a somber, color-coded heroine who tragically sacrificed herself to save the world (Silver Sorceress). - the Defenders included Nighthawk, an independently wealthy playboy by day, high-strung hero by night / the JLI had Batman. So who would win in a brouhaha? My guess is that the Defenders could take the JLI. It’d be a long, tough tussle, but in the end it’d be “Dr. Strange & associates” vs. “Maxwell’s misfits.” Whattaya think? ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-league-international-vs-the-defenders/280389/2 "2004-12-17T18:30:23Z")
I’m of the opinion that Dr. Strange and the Silver Surfer by themselves could make an excellent showing against the JLI, and probably take them down. Dr. Fate has broader spell knowledge than Strange, but Strange seems to be the more potent. The Surfer’s a Superman-class combatant with broad transformative powers… _maybe_ if Superman knocked Gardner cold and took his GL ring, Supes could counteract the Surfer. I don’t think it’s a walk, but it’s heavily in the Defenders favor. Fortunately, adding in the rest of the Defenders doesn’t change the odds much, except the Hulk. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-league-international-vs-the-defenders/280389/3 "2004-12-17T20:56:09Z")
**The Defenders** : Dr. Strange Silver Surfer Hulk Sub-Mariner Brunnhilde Nighthawk Beast Angel Moondragon Gargoyle Iceman Andromeda Interloper Manslaughter **Justice League International** Dr Fate J’onn Jonzz Captain Marvel Batman Black Canary Green Lantern: Guy Blue Beetle Booster Gold Mr. Miracle Dr. Light Fire Ice Rocket Red Power Girl Metamorpho Flash Elognated Man Crimson Fox Silver Sorceress Lobo Hawkman Hawkgirl Orion Lightray Tasmanian Devil Green Lantern: G’Nort Silver Surfer gives an overall advantage, still, but with three New Gods, JLI will be in it until the end. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-league-international-vs-the-defenders/280389/4 "2004-12-17T21:32:50Z")
Superman. Green Lantern : Hal Jordan. Wonder Woman. Bloodwynd. Captain Atom. ---
**Author:** ![JDeMobray](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@JDeMobray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JDeMobray)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-league-international-vs-the-defenders/280389/5 "2004-12-17T21:39:59Z")
> [@D\_Odds](#): > > **Justice League International** > Captain Marvel Captain Marvel was never a member of the Justice League International. He left the team in JL #8 or 9 the final issue right before they got the U.N. Charter - same with Dr. Fate. I love the JLI, but if we’re talking about a straight up fight I’ve got to give the edge to the Defenders. I mean, Hulk is the strongest one there is. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-league-international-vs-the-defenders/280389/6 "2004-12-17T21:42:44Z")
Jeez, a complete JLI roster is a nightmare to track down. Defenders were easier. ---
**Author:** ![shy\_guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a6a055/32.png) [@shy\_guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shy_guy)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-league-international-vs-the-defenders/280389/7 "2004-12-17T21:47:43Z")
As others have noted, the only Defenders that really matter are Surfer, Namor, Hulk, and Dr. Strange. And _maybe_ Valkyrie, I guess. Are we counting Captain Marvel as a member of the JLI? IIRC, he leaves the team as soon as it becomes the JLI. Although I can’t remember if his announcement is made right before or right after the team forms. I’d probably give it to the JLI out of sheer numbers (unless we want to narrow things down to a specifice lineup of each team, in which case I think the very first appearance of the JLI (it wasn’t called that until the end of issue… #4 or #5 – J’onn, Batman, Guy Garnder, Dr. Fate, Captain Atom, Rocket Red, Black Canary, Blue Beetle, Booster Gold, Mr. Miracle, and Oberon (IIRC) – would be a good place to start.) Anyway, if we’re doing whole team vs. whole team, yeah, I’d go with the JLI, although they’d definitely have some trouble with the Surfer (especially since the Flash we’re dealing with isn’t very powerful at this time). As D\_Odds says, the inclusion of the New Gods makes a big difference. With Orion and Lightray there, I’d give it to the JLI; without them, probably the Defenders. While he’s outrageously powerful, the Surfer isn’t much of a fighter. He could be in trouble if Orion and Guy Gardner set their sights on him. The Defenders also have a disadvantage in not really being a team. Heck, most of the members on the team hate each other. The JLI doesn’t have that problem as much, since everyone just basically hates Guy. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-league-international-vs-the-defenders/280389/8 "2004-12-17T22:43:50Z")
I thought that Lobo was a bad guy. Couldn’t he stand toe to toe with Hulk? ---
**Author:** ![Odinoneeye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/97f17d/32.png) [@Odinoneeye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odinoneeye)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-league-international-vs-the-defenders/280389/9 "2004-12-17T23:19:15Z")
My guess would be that Lobo would give a good show, but eventually the Hulk would prevail. Unless of course Lobo decided to lob a planet buster bomb at him. He’d do it too. Could the Hulk get through Booster’s force field? Superman can’t and Validus couldn’t when it was Brainiac 5’s. The JLIers could just keep him in a force bubble as they take out the rest of the team and then dog pile on Hulk. Or they could boom tube him out of there. Don’t know much about the Defenders so I have no suggestions for their strategy. My guess would be with Batman planning the attack, the JLI would succeed.