Justice League vs. Watchmen - Who would win?

Cafe Society
41

I have, sadly, thought about this sort of thing way too much and I’ve come to the conclusion that Dr. Manhattan is rivaled, in all of comicdom, only by the Phoenix.

But, thankfully, Moore realized the same thing Byrne did: having a truly omnipotent character destroys all attempt at story. They took different approaches. Byrne had Jean Grey commit suicide to deal with the power…

Moore had Osterman slowly give away his humanity. But not because he’s omnipotent…because he’s bored. Remember, anything that will every happen to him, even his reactions, are known by him already. Nothing will ever surprise him and catch his true interest outside of his own thoughts and creativity. He no longer cares about defending the United States and humanity and such because they hold no surprises for him. It’s possible, using quantum theory, that not only does he know everything that he’ll ever do but everything that will ever occur anywhere and anytime.

Yes, the mystics might challenge him. But only if he allow(s/ed) it to occur. This is a being who, like the Phoenix, could simply decide that not only do you not exist but that you NEVER existed. He can also take the limitation on that power, having a single point of view, and eliminate it by becoming as many omnipotent beings as he feels is necessary.

In short, The Justice League, all of them, are gone in the first blink of the battle. In combat, which we never see Manhattan in, his powers are such that he can engage the enemy prior to the battle even being considered. He’s like The Midnighter but with the ability to end it literally before it begins.

All the talk of him being able to ‘disintegrate’ his opponents really only displays his lack of thought to the project. And with that limitation on his thinking (he lacks imagination or interest) he still finished Vietnam in a week.

Moore set out to build the ultimate superpowered being and he did so. Then he had to get him offstage for the post-Watchmen era.

Hell, how does one even defeat him? He was reduced to constituent subatomic particles and came back in seconds.

Even if Fate sent him to heaven what would happen? Remember that quote “God exists…and he’s American.” That’s the level of power we’re seeing there.

Again, I think about this way too much.

42

Jon claimed he stayed on Earth because of his connection with Laurie. But that obviously isn’t true: he ended up leaving her behind to go to another galaxy. If she was the reason keeping him of Earth, he would have stayed another forty or fifty years until she died.

I think the truth is he stayed to see what it was Adrian was doing. Adrian’s tachyon generator made it impossible for Jon to foresee what it was Adrian was doing. It was the only thing in his future he didn’t know and he left Earth right after his curiousity was satisified.

And Jon allowed it to happen. He could foresee the aftermath and must have realized Adrian was doing something on the level of what he did. He could have stopped Adrian at any time. But he allowed Adrian to procede because he wanted to have one event in his life that he didn’t know in advance.

43

The way he puts it, she’s his last connection to humanity. He loses that connection because they’re not together at the end of the story - she’s left him for Nite Owl II.

He allowed a lot of other things to happen, but not that. His ability to see the future is blocked and he says so himself. There’s nothing to indicate he allowed it to happen.

44

The JLA doesn’t kill. They might knock out his hump-buddy, but she wouldn’t die. I agree that Manhatten is rivaled only by the Spectre and Phoenix (and the Beyonder but no one really wants to remember him, me included) but why should he care about the fight at all? He doesn’t really like any of his “teammates”. In fact, assuming he was previously unaware of the DCU, he might be intrigued by actual aliens, the GL ring and whatever the Speed Force is, at least momentarily.

And I can only imagine the type of psychosexual trauma it would inflict on the Comedian to have Wonder Woman block his bullets and then beat him him. It would be fascinating.

45

Hurm.

46

My understanding is that only Jon’s ability to see the events at Karnak during the climactic confrontation was blocked. The tachyon shielding only concealed the time and location where they were being generated not future events that would occur afterwards.

So Jon couldn’t specifically see what Adrian would say and do at Karnak but he could see the aftermath - he knew that NYC would be attacked, that there would be a global alliance formed, and he would leave Earth. He was like a person who had the ability to watch the future new broadcasts from December 8, 1941 or November 23, 1963 or September 12, 2001.

Jon could have stopped Adrian easily at any time but allowed him to go ahead. This was foreshadowed by the scene where he stood and watched the Comedian kill the woman in Vietnam (and the flashback scene where Janie says he did nothing to prevent Kennedy’s assassination).

47

My bet is that Jon and J’onn would find each other to be an interesting person to talk to, even in the middle of a fight. I can see them retiring to Mars to chat over tea.

48

But that calls into question the exact nature of what Jon sees when he sees the future. If he sees what has already happened, how can he presuppose to alter it? I didn’t get the impression that Jon sees all the infinite possibilities of the way things can turn out with the option to influence which outcome occurs, but that he sees the events which actually do happen.

How do you change that?

49

Like KneadtoKnow says, we don’t really know how he sees the future or in what way he becomes aware of it. He may be capable of knowing everything that will happen in the future, but we don’t know if or how he pays attention to it.

My assumption was that he’s not omniscient. I saw him as someone with enormous intelligence but a more or less human attention span - unless he’s dividing his being, he’s focused on only a few things at a time. Given how little attention he was paying to people at that point, as compared to subatomic particles, I think it’s reasonable to think he was not paying attention to that part of the future and wasn’t aware of the attack (he only says he saw strees full of bodies, but didn’t know when it was happening) or its consequences (he knew he would kill someone, but not who or why).

50

It was made clear that Jon was not omniscient. He only knew the things he personally experienced not everything there was to be known. But essentially all of us know what we experience. The main difference between Jon and normal people was that he knew everything he was ever going to experience even before he had actually experienced it (with the exception of the events at Karnak). He already knew everything that would ever happen to him and how he would react to it.

51

Assuming Dr. Tomorrow cares the Watchmen. Because Dr. Tomorrow doesn’t even have to look at matter to vaporize it.

52

Do we actually know that Dr. Manhattan does?

53

I disagree. Jon can’t change the past. He can’t even change the future. He’s stuck doing exactly what he, himself, knows is going to happen. He’s less the Spectre or the Phoenix, and more the Phantom Stranger. Phenomenal cosmic power, can’t do anything important.

The Phantom Stranger who can’t die, and happens to show up whenever the Justice League needs him…

54

Hey, if that acquaintance of ours is in the cards, then the whole balance shifts.

I would maintain that our friend does at least have & recognize free will, unlike poor depressed Jon Osterman. And that might make all the difference in the world. Imagine Jon getting a patented Phantom Stranger talking-to about personal responsibility.

55

I’ve always wondered how much of that is the truth, and how much of it is a rationalization from somebody who was already detached and passive before he lost his humanity. Because on Mars, he changes his mind and decides human life has value. He never gives any evidence that he knows the conclusion to his argument with, and earlier in the book, he never betrays any evidence that his feelings on that subject are going to change. Time is different for him but we don’t really know he is stuck. He believes he’s stuck, but he believed he was stuck when his father was pushing him into being a physicist, too.

56

Batman would plan on Ozymandius catching the bullet and would coat it with quick acting neurotoxin absorbed through the skin.

57

Oh, I’d figure every Justice Leaguer will be addressed in the anticipatory teleconference call Batman puts out before the first punch gets thrown; each hero will have a place to go and a highly specialized task to perform, as part of a plan that’s guaranteed to foil Doc’s powers and Ozzy’s schemes.

And by “Batman” I mean “Ozymandias Dressed Up Like Batman”.

58

Form of… ASS WHUPING!

And of course, any predictions get tossed in the can if the Joker turns up decides to fuck with everybody. Isn’t one of his powers basically that he’s so unhinged that he’s aware of the lack of a fourth wall?:smiley:

59

Of course, you can really screw with Dr. Manhattan by hitting his other one weakness. Time travel. The JLA has a number of people capable of it, including, say, Hourman (the android.)

60

Along with, IIRC, the She-Hulk and Loki. :slight_smile: