Does anyone remember that bombing in Oklahoma City? Afterward I heard Pat Buchanan and more moderate types talking about how we have to watch out for those Arabs, because they were a terrorist threat. Anyone remember the race, religion, and nationality of those terrorists? How about the Unibomber? Or the people hunting doctors who perform abortions? Or whoever sent all that anthrax? If you’re on American soil, the biggest threat to your life and well-being are white Americans.
And you know what? If your in a predominantly black neighborhood your biggest threat are black males. So are you saying that since middle eastern men do not commit the most crimes in the US then they should not be watched? Get some common sense people!
If you are an American citizen, the biggest threat to your “well-being” on our planet are muslim extremists. Period. And muslim extremists are predominantly men of middle-eastern descent. Period.
Fingerprinting is not illegal if there is a “compelling state interest”. We do it to ourselves for crying out loud. Yet you get all wishy-washy when foriegners are subject to the same procedures as us?
Wha-fucking-wha
It would cost too much? How much did the WTC attack cost us overall? In trillions?
It’s profiling. So? Without some form of profiling you would have to require someone to look at a blob of mass and start from there. Looking for human beings is profiling. It’s common sense. So is racial profiling.
We would miss too many? And how many criminals break skip the gun laws to commit crimes with them? Maybe we should scrap that project too?
‘We would only get 20-50’? Took less than that on 9-11.
Basically you are saying that since fingerprinting is not the end-all solution that it is a waste of time. Do I have to tell you how idiotic that sounds?
It is not denying rights to them. If you want to fingerprint everyone then go for it. As long as it fullfills the Constitutional requirements of compelling state interest.
You may be willing to risk your life and your loved ones because some foreign visitor may be hassled or offended by something, but I am not. And your willingness to do so to me and mine pisses me off.
To paraphrase the all-wise Dennis Miller: ‘Why evolve a fucking backbone if we refuse to stand up for ourselves.’
Except that the total death toll, in all of those attacks put together, is still less than a tenth of the WTC attack, and only one attack was actually believed to be by Arabs. The vast majority of deaths from terrorism in the US has been from Arabs. Do you really think it was wrong of us to suspect Arabs in the OK bombing?
BTW, it’s “unabomber”, and AFAIK while there isn’t any evidence that the anthrax was sent by Arabs, there wasn’t any evidence that it wasn’t.
The ham sandwich would be a brilliant idea; how devout a Muslim can a guy be if he’ll eat a ham sandwich? Heck, a ham sandwich served by any airline I’ve ever been on would be sacrilege to an atheist!
Seriously, the U.S. has already implemented additional layers of security checks for men between 16 and 45 from a list of 26 countries which are primarily Arab and/or Muslim. This is done at the visa application stage. U.S. Consulates now require all men in this age range (not just nationals of those countries) complete an additional visa application form, which asks for things like any other passports you may have held, any military service you’ve done or special training you’ve had in chemistry or technologies with military applications, other countries you’ve visited, etc. The funny part: the list of 26 countries has never been officially announced, because it includes current U.S. military allies like Saudi Arabia and Pakistan.
The main problem with this practice is that even if it worked perfectly, it’s only applicable to people who need to apply for visas to visit the U.S. for brief periods, which means it won’t catch anyone traveling on a Canadian or West European passport.
Check out the State Department Website at http://www.travel.state.gov and look at the DS-157 form for the whole story.
Well if you’re in a predominantly white neighborhood your biggest threat are white males. Last time I checked, white folks commit more crimes than other folks. So does it not make sense to fingerprint all the white males and follow them around wherever they go? Why haven’t we been doing this, people!
If we’re talking about crime and who should be profiled, I say it should be the group that commits the MOST of it. Let’s fingerprint these people and see if there’s any resulting change in the crime rate. If it works, then we can see about fingerprinting everyone else.
For it does seem that posters here have somehow developed severe reading comprehension impairments.
Now, I have no strong objections as a matter of philosophy as to the fingerprinting of visa seekers.
What is of concern to me is the rampant childishly fear-driven ‘we gotta do something regardless of whether it is cost-effective and rational use of limited resources’ squeeling that becomes so distressingly prevalent when this issue of ‘terror’ comes up. Some posters of course congenitally can not muster the neurons to look into something with anything resembling a glimmer of logic, but that aside it strikes me we have a lot of lashing out in panic.
What have we learned in the past weeks, if one is to believe the press reports, and I have no reason not to.
We have learned that
(a) The INS, FBI, NSA, CIA, USDoS etc. communicate poorly the data which they already possess.
(b) Those failures in communication may be attributed to the following items
(1) archaic data systems little ressembling the wizardry that Hollywood (and implicitely most posters screaming on about stopping the terrorists) attribute to the Feds
(2) turf battles such that even when data is shareable via the infrastructure, it may not be shared. Some of those turf battles may be the near inevitable contrast between intelligence and law enforcement communities with rather different missions and thus near-term tactics.
© that all of the agencies lack the manpower (quantitatively and qualitatively) to handle current data in a sufficiently robust analytical way
(d) the data collected, if it had been handled properly would have provided a reasonable chance at uncovering some signficant portion of the plot
(e) that the mass of chaff, useless collected intel of low quality gets in the way of finding the real information.
I submit these are reasonable lessons one can extract from published reporting as I have read it in The New York Times, The Washington Post,The Economist,The Wall Street Journal, The Financial Times among other news sources I read regularly.
As such one would hope that rather than running around screaming that the sky is falling in and that we gotta do something, anything to stop the bad guys, one might ask what steps reasonably respond to the above. I point especially to the reality of
(a) limited resources, especially human resources.
(b) limited time and material
© limited technology and limited funds to fully install even a moderately up to date, fully integrated data sharing system for existing intelligence generators and users.
Now, thinking about fingerprinting once more.
(a) It is a fairly inexact but useful tool. However, the data must be accessible, and insofar as even for domestic criminal uses I am led to understand that there is no complete electronic fingerprinting technology in place, I have doubts as to the utility. Second, the data thus generated strikes me as low quality and probably redundant to other intel. Note the prior point in re excess amount of chaff, and limited analytical resources.
(b) the targetting of “Middle Eastern” countries while not on its face unreasonable runs into issues that gobear has already identified – that substantial Middle Eastern pops exist in non-Middle Eastern countries – not just Europe but also Latin America. Given the sophistication of al-Qaeda it is not terribly difficult to imagine them either switiching to using actual nationals or engaging in ever more sophisticated identity theft.
On this basis alone, it strikes me that fingerprinting is a feel good measure designed to make the fraidy cats feel better as question rise regarding the Administration’s approach to terror. Propaganda to be short. Not necessarily a bad thing to announce, but it strikes me as a waste of limited resources, when developing better intel and sharing mechanisms for existing data would be a better use of the time and resources.
Saen graces us with this screed:
Yes, I would hope that you got some common sense and forgot a bit of this panicked chicken littleism.
Your general point appears, and given the lack of clarity I suppose I could be wrong in this reading, that Middle Eastern men should be ‘watched’ – perhaps not a bad idea if it is rather narrowed down to the FBI should set up a more sophisticated program of observation of radical groups so as to be better able to track and identify threats, as well as weed out the chaff. I was amused to read, amused and horrified actually, the account of an FBI investigation where I learned that the agents observing ‘Arab/Muslim radicals’ spoke no Arabic, read no Arabic, and only judged their intel by how it ‘seemed’ to them. That is an intelligence failure.
Hyperbole and panick mongering. The biggest threat is a crash in your drive time to and from work.
Now as to the 2nd, yes, Muslim extremists are predominately men of MENA region descent. That doesn’t tell us very much in and of itself.
Which is why a sophisticated intelligence program which allows scarce resources to be focused on the right places, rather than a wasteful and eventually futile general surveillance is what is necessary.
More whinging chicken littleism. Trillions, no. Hundreds of millions I believe, perhaps in the low billion range depending on what you count.
Not to trivialize, I have personal reasons not to, but it does no good to run about screaming and squeeling irrationally. There are limited resources, not just money but talent. They should be deployed in a cost effective manner.
No, racial profiling is not only immoral rot, its a waste of resources and an inefficient application of limited resources based on nothing more than lazy blind prejudice.
You entirely misunderstood the point.
Need I emphasize what a whinging squeeling little irrational chicken little you sound like?
Now as to the ever uninformed TR:
Rather the contrary. Unless you mean to imply that somehow someone of Arab descent was working in one of the select number of labs which had access to the particular strain of US Mil. Anthrax which genetic testing has narrowed the delivered Anthrax to. Or that said “Arabs” were exposed to or otherwise trained in the milling techniques developed in self-same labs, government or private, and were apparently familiar with the procedures and protocols of the same labs such that they were able to spirit out the Anthrax.
But no, I rather suspect this is a weak attempt to claim that somehow Islamic extremists are actually the ones behind the Anthrax events.
No, there is rather substantial evidence that this is not the case, despite all the dezinformatia put out by the folks who wanted to take a whack at Iraq.
All in all TR, if you have to use AFAIK, please just cease your message there. It will save us time from correcting your usual inaccuracies and tedious attempts at parsing others words.
I know there’s a danger in asking The Ryan this question but: What’s your point? Because we don’t have evidence that Arabs didn’t commit this crime we must therefore assume that they did?
And every other crime of a terrorist nature should be assumed to be commited by people or organizations which we have no evidence that they didn’t do it?
If you are an American citizen, the biggest threat to your “well-being” is someone you know. Hysteria and hyperbole does not equal common sense.
I hate taking too long to post and then have everybody make the same points as me, only better.
Blargh!
Better just to stop ALL immigration from muslim countries, than to worry if we hurt their little feelings by requiring a fingerprint from visitors.
Monstro says:
Monstro, you dont even want to go down this road.
Black males commit a vastly disproportionate amount of crime in this country. The typical Black is several times more likely than the typical White to be a criminal, or to commit a crime of violence. In fact, Blacks commit 90 percent of Black/White interracial violent crime.
Barking Spider,
Find me a cite that disproves my assertion that whites commit more crimes than black people. I don’t care about proportionate figures. If we’re talking about risks, an average person is more likely to be victimized by a white person than a black person, a point indirectly confirmed by Biggirl’s link. So if fingerprinting is a cure-all, why shouldn’t our first Bite Out of Crime[sup]TM[/sup] be supplied by fingerprinting those folks who are most likely to victimize us within our own communities and homes: the scary white man. Surely red-blooded Americans won’t have a problem with this.
Of course Whites commit more crimes than Blacks. But thats ONLY because Whites are still 70% of the population.
If all things were “fair”, you would thing that Whites would commit 70% of crimes. But thats not true. Whites commit far less crimes than their numbers in the general population would indicate. Blacks commit far more crimes than their numbers in the general population would indicate. The typical Black person walking down the street is far more likely to be a criminal than the typical White person.
Time to break out those fingerprinting kits for the Black populace.
Thats like when some liberal jumps up and says that:
“Most Americans on welfare are White”
But of course when you tell them that Whites are 70% of the countries population, yet only 40% of the welfare caseload, and Blacks are 12% of the population, but 38% of the welfare caseload, do they shut their racist liberal mouths.
I think you are misunderstanding the point. Crashing on your way to work may be a threat to you, but it is hardly a devastating blow to the entire world. Even the dreaded unabomber was not a worldwide threat. The main threat to the well being of the world right now is muslim extremists. In addition, most other threats can be avoided, but a worldwide threat, if it occurs, cannot be avoided.
As for the black/white crime thing… not relevant :rolleyes:
I don’t know how helpful fingerprinting visitors would be, but if fingerprinting is helpful, and its benefits outweigh its costs, then we should do it. It is not racial profiling to fingerprint everyone from a certain country. There could be people of any number of races that live there.
Paging BS, please answer the red discourtesy phone in the Pit, please.
Well no shit. That was my point.
Per capita? Cite please. And since we are talking about terrorism and not all crimes, well I guess your meanderings are moot. Unless of course the ‘last time you checked more white people committed terrorist crimes in the US’.
I don’t get it.
LOL. i’m sorry. Who is lashing out in panic here? I am panicking by asking for fingerprints? I would think panicking would be more in the lines of, *“This is targeting a group of people, the overwhelming majority of whom are innocent, but whose lives will be turned upside down,” Zogby added. “The message it sends is that we’re becoming like the Soviet Union, with people registering at police stations.” *
Turned upside down huh?
What the hell does that have to do with the price of tea in China? You are saying that because the agencies cannot communicate with one another to begin with, that more information that would more than likely not be passed along is useless. Well, why don’t we just give up now then? Or better yet why don’t we get them idiots to start communicating so that any new information we do get will be more effective?
Umm, I thaught Congress was trying to pass a budget that woul make more resources available for Homeland Security and fighting terrorism. Fingerprinting seems like a logical expenditure of those resources.
Again, fingerprinting is not the end-all. And no it should not be used to deny resources to other forms that we currently use and are effective. And to me, that is speculative that that would be the ultimate outcome. Also, fingerprinting in it’s current form does not apprehend all criminals today. And some criminals wear gloves or try to avoid being fingerprintd as it is. Should we stop the practice based on that defeatest logic? Give me a break.
Whatever floats your boat bub. The onlu logical excuse you may have to currently not fingerprint is it may not be feesable for lack of resources. Speculation alone is not an excuse to use a ‘useful tool’. And it is just laziness to not attempt to try it.
Then don’t trivialize it. Depending on what you count WTC Attack Cost May Reach 105 Billion Dollars: Official Report .
Don’t give me that crap. Racial and ethnic profiling is not a friggin waste is it is evident that ethnic origin or race plays a substantial role in crimes that may be committed. Your trying to whitewash it with screams of immoraility and racism does nothing the change the fact that it is a usefull tool when used appropriatley without prejudice. And because some may abuse it does not defeat the logic of process of elimation, even if it makes you feel all cuddley inside.
I am surprised you did not care to enlighten me in my lack of nueronic output.
Need I emphasize what a self gratifying, egotistical, opinnionated, elitest you sound like? If 3,000 of my neighbors get smacked on the head and killed because some fanatical psychotic throws a piece of the sky on them, and has obvious plans to rain more with me and my family at risk, you bet your ass I will do all I can to protect myself and others even if that means yelling in your face what is obvious.
But if 70% of the pop is white and only 12% is black, who is the AVERAGE American more likely to encounter? A bad black guy or a bad white guy? Am I racist for knowing how to do math?
Put another way:
If considerably more Americans are killed by home-grown Americans than foreign-grown Middle Eastern guys, why should be we more afraid of the latter than the former? Why not fingerprint Americans if our goal is save American lives? Wouldn’t this be the most efficient use of our energy, assuming that fingerprinting is preventative (which is highly doubtful) in the first place?
And that’s like when some knucklehead brings welfare into a discussion about terrorism. Go jerk off somewhere else, buddy.
Monstro says:
Monstro, you said that those who are committing the crimes should be fingerprinted. I submit to you that BLACKS are committing the crimes.
If this country was 99 percent White, and one percent Black, and Whites were committing 51 percent of the crimes, with the 1% Blacks committing 49% of the crimes, would you still insist that Whites be fingerprinted because they “commit a majority of crimes”, even though the typical Black is many time more likely to be a criminal?
Monstro says:
Evidently, you don’t know how to “do math”. As a product of a racist “affirmative action” program, it’s not surprising.
By the way, when are they going to break out those stamp pads for the Brothas?
Monstro says:
[quotes]
If we’re talking about crime and who should be profiled, I say it should be the group that commits the MOST of it. Let’s fingerprint these people and see if there’s any resulting change in the crime rate. If it works, then we can see about fingerprinting everyone else.
[/quote]
I’m not insisting that whites or blacks be profiled or fingerprinted. I think profiling based on race is lazy and wrong. But even if I did agree with it, I would still say that it makes more sense to figure out who the average criminal is if we’re weighing risks and practicality. Is the average criminal a black guy? Listen up, Barking Spider:
[quote]
According to [Edward]Koch’s calculation, blacks, who make up 12 percent of the population, are committing 45 percent of violent crimes. And since 'for the most part only males are committing the crimes of violence…rougly 6 percent of the poplation is committing 45 percent of the crimes." Even if one accepts Koch’s statistics, one must judge his conclusion perposterous, for it would mean that every black male in America–the 6 percent in his equation–is engaged in acts of mayhem. In other words, even black lawyers, accountants, teachers, and salesmen who put in long hours at work are apparently getting their jollies…by cracking hapless innocents over the head…