# Justice or Not? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 9, 2009, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-or-not/520544 "2009-12-09T01:40:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2009, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-or-not/520544/61 "2009-12-09T20:37:38Z")
> [@kopek](#): > > It’s part of the reason I said screw the pardon. And even if I was young and healthy I would say the same. In the question raised by the OP, I gave myself the authority. Along with that comes the responsibility and the possibility that someone from his/her family may do the same to me. It could happen. > > Yeah – I hear it now. An eye for an eye just makes the whole world blind. Well, I will admit that I don’t have a problem with that. But going back to the hypoothetical we were given, risking a world of blindness beats risking a world without a sense of justice. But is a world of blindness a just world? ---
**Author:** ![kopek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kopek/32/337_2.png) [@kopek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kopek)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2009, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-or-not/520544/62 "2009-12-09T20:47:36Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > But is a world of blindness a just world? It could be a just world; some would argue more just than the world we live in. There are days when I fit the category of “some” and days I don’t. If we could “un-invent” violence I would probably say “no” but given that humans are what they are? I’ll just leave it as one of those great debates I have internally now and then. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2009, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-or-not/520544/63 "2009-12-10T01:31:24Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > No, I would not take the law in my own hands. It is not up to me to decide whether someone will kill again. I don’t believe in pre-emptive killing any more than I do preemptive wars. So you wouldn’t have supported had you been President a pre-emptive strike against the Japanese fleet about to attack Pearl Harbor? As for my own answer yes I would kill him immediatly not in hot-blooded revenge but in the cool, methodical way of the executioner or a soldier. And as a citizen it is up to me to dispense justice even if the system fails. I would kill even if the person I saw being murdered was a stranger or even a person I disliked. ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_Wombats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_Wombats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_Wombats)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2009, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-or-not/520544/64 "2009-12-10T01:39:15Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > And as a citizen it is up to me to dispense justice even if the system fails. No, it isn’t. It really isn’t. Who are you to decide when the system fails? You’ve just appointed yourself judge, jury and executioner in one move. You’ve authorized vigilante action in every form when someone disagrees with the results of the system. Is the system perfect? No. Is “justice” always the result? No, and maybe not even the majority of the time. But, neither of the two preceding questions grant you the right to “dispense justice” as you see fit. And as for the “cool, methodical way of the … soldier” I wonder if any of the active or retired soldiers who post on this board would agree with your characterization of what it’s like to kill in combat. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2009, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-or-not/520544/65 "2009-12-10T01:45:58Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_Wombats](#): > > No, it isn’t. It really isn’t. > > Who are you to decide when the system fails? You’ve just appointed yourself judge, jury and executioner in one move. You’ve authorized vigilante action in every form when someone disagrees with the results of the system. > > Is the system perfect? No. Is “justice” always the result? No, and maybe not even the majority of the time. But, neither of the two preceding questions grant you the right to “dispense justice” as you see fit. > > And as for the “cool, methodical way of the … soldier” I wonder if any of the active or retired soldiers who post on this board would agree with your characterization of what it’s like to kill in combat. If I saw the murder happen than it is undeniable he commited the murder and if justice does not happen that means it has been corrupted once too much and if possible must be corrected. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2009, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-or-not/520544/66 "2009-12-10T02:06:40Z")
But what about the dead dog in the alley? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2009, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-or-not/520544/67 "2009-12-10T02:14:50Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > If I saw the murder happen than it is undeniable he commited the murder and if justice does not happen that means it has been corrupted once too much and if possible must be corrected. And by doing this, you will encourage others to do the same-others who will not have the God-like ability that you are claiming for the purpose of this thread, others who _will_ get it wrong and either punish the innocent or exact too harsh a punishment on the guilty. These wrongful deaths _will_ be “avenged” by friends, relatives and righteous do-gooders like yourself. All this will happen just because you want to cause others to feel pain. ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_Wombats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_Wombats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_Wombats)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2009, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-or-not/520544/68 "2009-12-10T02:15:56Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > If I saw the murder happen than it is undeniable he commited the murder and if justice does not happen that means it has been corrupted once too much and if possible must be corrected. Has it been corrupted? Or did it simply not meet the standards society has decided are required to merit imprisonment or death? How does vigilante justice correct the system? Wouldn’t it be preferable to fix the system so that these situations don’t arise in the future, rather than fixing this one failure without addressing the larger “corruption?” From a basic, primal level, sure I might consider revenge, but there are a huge number of unaddressed variables before I would be willing to say with absolute certainty. I think you do yourself a disservice by including the pardon. If you can pursue revenge without consequences it’s much easier to say “Of course I’d kill that scum!” But, what if you actually had to suffer the consequences for your actions? Would you be so willing to “dispense justice” if you had to serve prison time for it? ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2009, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-or-not/520544/69 "2009-12-10T02:23:07Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > If I saw the murder happen than it is undeniable he commited the murder and if justice does not happen that means it has been corrupted once too much and if possible must be corrected. Why does justice entail killing, though? A lot of people might think a prison sentence is a proper punishment. Still others would think that cutting off the guy’s arm or removing his balls is just. And then there are others who would find those barbaric. Why do you get to decide how he should be punished? ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2009, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-or-not/520544/70 "2009-12-10T03:07:55Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_Wombats](#): > > Has it been corrupted? Or did it simply not meet the standards society has decided are required to merit imprisonment or death? How does vigilante justice correct the system? Wouldn’t it be preferable to fix the system so that these situations don’t arise in the future, rather than fixing this one failure without addressing the larger “corruption?” I meant a murder that was acquitted not because of society’s standards but because of some legal triviality or police mistake like the crap reason Miranda got freed (so what if he wasn’t told his rights, it’s common sense and that doesn’t make him any less guilty). > [@](#): > > From a basic, primal level, sure I might consider revenge, but there are a huge number of unaddressed variables before I would be willing to say with absolute certainty. > > I think you do yourself a disservice by including the pardon. If you can pursue revenge without consequences it’s much easier to say “Of course I’d kill that scum!” > > But, what if you actually had to suffer the consequences for your actions? > > Would you be so willing to “dispense justice” if you had to serve prison time for it? Depends on how long and public opinion regarding my imprisonment. > [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Why does justice entail killing, though? A lot of people might think a prison sentence is a proper punishment. Still others would think that cutting off the guy’s arm or removing his balls is just. And then there are others who would find those barbaric. Why do you get to decide how he should be punished? Because personally dispensing justice is usually only killing or other phsyical methods since imprisoning them will usually result in them getting freed by the police. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2009, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-or-not/520544/71 "2009-12-10T03:11:28Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Because personally dispensing justice is usually only killing or other phsyical methods since imprisoning them will usually result in them getting freed by the police. Can I be pardoned if I blind the drunk driver that killed a family, or is the pardon limited to killing the guy? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2009, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-or-not/520544/72 "2009-12-10T03:17:43Z")
> [@whole\_bean](#): > > this is the problem with these debates. folks are leary of admitting to something in the chance that admission will be extrpolated to support of something else. I can answer this question yes and still for a number of legitimate and consistent reason think that vigilante justice and capital punishment are wrong. A twin? Really? Use my hypo to **Freudian Slit**. You’ve known the guy for years. He doesn’t have a twin. And nobody on earth looks like him either. I have to buy a ridiculous hypothetical and can not offer one of my own. The world is not made of absolutes. You can make mistakes. The premise is flawed to start with and deliberately slanted . You can make mistakes. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2009, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-or-not/520544/73 "2009-12-10T03:35:31Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Can I be pardoned if I blind the drunk driver that killed a family, or is the pardon limited to killing the guy? Well I would pardon you provided you were not insane or dangerous to the community. Anyways I will only dispense justice or by your terms “go vigilante” if I saw the crime perpertrated or the evidence is blatant and the defendant was only acquited because of technicalities or bias in the jury. ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_Wombats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_Wombats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_Wombats)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2009, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-or-not/520544/74 "2009-12-10T03:37:04Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Well I would pardon you provided you were not … dangerous to the community. He blinds another member of the community who was involved in a drunk driving accident, and he’s NOT a danger to the community? ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2009, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-or-not/520544/75 "2009-12-10T03:41:19Z")
That’s the thing. We all have different ideas of what’s reasonable. Some think killing someone who killed a loved one is fine. Others think the death penalty is unacceptable. If we can’t even decide what to do when it is ordained by a court of law, how can we decide that one single flawed human being is possibly capable of carrying out justice or anything near to it? ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2009, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-or-not/520544/76 "2009-12-10T03:52:22Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_Wombats](#): > > He blinds another member of the community who was involved in a drunk driving accident, and he’s NOT a danger to the community? If he was only violent against convicted criminals he’s not a danger to the community as a whole. ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_Wombats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_Wombats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_Wombats)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2009, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-or-not/520544/77 "2009-12-10T03:55:13Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > If he was only violent against convicted criminals he’s not a danger to the community as a whole. The premise of your argument has been that they were not convicted criminals, so I was operating under the same assumption here. Assuming convicts are, in fact, not members of the community: If the drunk driver was convicted, why is additional punishment warranted such that the one doing harm deserves a pardon? If the drunk driver was not convicted, then he was in fact blinding a member of the community at large. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2009, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-or-not/520544/78 "2009-12-10T03:56:33Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > If he was only violent against convicted criminals he’s not a danger to the community as a whole. Would the killing be done in the street or in court? Strike that-too many bodies and too much blood to clean up. What about a large open area where others can see “justice” being done, right out there in the open-maybe a colluseum? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2009, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-or-not/520544/79 "2009-12-10T04:19:56Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > So you wouldn’t have supported had you been President a pre-emptive strike against the Japanese fleet about to attack Pearl Harbor? > > As for my own answer yes I would kill him immediatly not in hot-blooded revenge but in the cool, methodical way of the executioner or a soldier. And as a citizen it is up to me to dispense justice even if the system fails. I would kill even if the person I saw being murdered was a stranger or even a person I disliked. Spoken like a true-blue Orange County thirteen-year old. I hope that: a.) you _never_ find yourself facing such a decision IRL; and b.) if you do, you have done a considerable amount of growing up first. ETA 1: That’s intended to be a benediction, by the way. ETA 2: Failing both of the above, if you ever find yourself wanting a fresh screen name, may I suggest **Travis Bickle**? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2009, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-or-not/520544/80 "2009-12-10T04:28:07Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > As for my own answer yes I would kill him **immediatly** not in hot-blooded revenge but in the cool, methodical way of the executioner or a soldier. > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > If I saw the murder happen than it is undeniable he commited the murder and if justice does not happen that means it has been corrupted once too much and if possible must be corrected. Wait a minute. What does “immediately” mean? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-or-not/520544.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-or-not/520544.md?page=5)