# Justice or Not? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 9, 2009, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-or-not/520544 "2009-12-09T01:40:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2009, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-or-not/520544/81 "2009-12-10T04:32:50Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > I meant a murder that was acquitted not because of society’s standards but because of some legal triviality or police mistake like the crap reason Miranda got freed (so what if he wasn’t told his rights, it’s common sense and that doesn’t make him any less guilty). [Oh, and by the way…](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernesto_Arturo_Miranda) > [@](#): > > After the Supreme Court decision set aside Miranda’s initial conviction, the state of Arizona retried him. At the second trial, with his confession excluded from evidence, he was again convicted, and he spent 11 years in prison. Please grow up. No hurry, just – before you ever pick up a weapon. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2009, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-or-not/520544/82 "2009-12-10T16:35:11Z")
Curtis must think someone who kills is necessarily a serial killer. Most people kill in anger and generally kill a friend or relative . They do not follow up by wiping our more people. So they are not a threat to the rest of society. But Curtis running around blowing people away would be. He wants to be a serial killer. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2009, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-or-not/520544/83 "2009-12-10T18:50:05Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > He wants to be a serial killer. But only when the laws of man fail. That is when he will put things right, and evildoers will tremble as the shadow of Curtis passes over them and their evilness, when they’re out there eviling stuff up and getting evil all over everything, and that leaves stains, y’know… stains that can only be cleaned by the righteous hand of LeMay bearing the pine-sol-soaked sponge of justice. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2009, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-or-not/520544/84 "2009-12-10T19:53:46Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > I meant a murder that was acquitted not because of society’s standards but because of some legal triviality or police mistake like the crap reason Miranda got freed (so what if he wasn’t told his rights, it’s common sense and that doesn’t make him any less guilty). That “legal triviality” or “crap reason Miranda” is what protects us ALL, including YOU, **Curtis** , from being wrongfully convicted. It’s called the “Constitution”. You know, that “trivial legal crap?” Besides, when you get caught, will you willingly go to prison? ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2009, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-or-not/520544/85 "2009-12-10T20:00:35Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > If I saw the murder happen than it is undeniable he commited the murder and if justice does not happen that means it has been corrupted once too much and if possible must be corrected. You know from seeing it happen that it was not self defense? That the perpetrator meets the mental standards to be capable of committing murder? All you know from seeing the killing happen (if indeed you know this) is that one person killed another. To assume it is murder usurps the legal system. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2009, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-or-not/520544/86 "2009-12-10T20:01:47Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Besides, when you get caught, will you willingly go to prison? Sure he will, until the governor pardons him. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2009, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-or-not/520544/87 "2009-12-10T20:07:55Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > As for my own answer yes I would kill him immediatly not in hot-blooded revenge but in the cool, methodical way of the executioner or a soldier. And as a citizen it is up to me to dispense justice even if the system fails. I would kill even if the person I saw being murdered was a stranger or even a person I disliked. Aren’t you a Christian? Surely God will provide the appropriate punishment for the fellow after death; too, he is likely to be more accurate, both in determining exact guilt and in providing the most appropriate punishment. On what basis would you put your opinion above God’s? Too, by taking upon yourself the authority to dispense justice, you put your opinion above society’s as a whole. Even if in this situation every single person in the country believes that the acquitted person is guilty, it is by their approval that the loophole or legal necessity which serves to not convict them is there in the first place. You may well find many people who consider that a person deserves death - but not necessarily as many willing to forgo the rule of law in order to dispense it. By circumventing that, you aren’t fulfilling society’s wishes, you work against them. On what basis would you put your opinion above society’s? Also, I would tend to question the idea that a soldier (in combat, presumably) kills in cold blood. I’ve certainly never seen combat myself, but from what i’ve heard there’s very few types of combat which _aren’t_ hot-blooded. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2009, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-or-not/520544/88 "2009-12-10T20:10:02Z")
> [@villa](#): > > You know from seeing it happen that it was not self defense? That the perpetrator meets the mental standards to be capable of committing murder? > > All you know from seeing the killing happen (if indeed you know this) is that one person killed another. To assume it is murder usurps the legal system. Yeah, there’s this, too. Of course if it’s your wife or child, you’re thinking, “Of course it was unwarranted,” but people close to the victim are not the most impartial of judges. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2009, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-or-not/520544/89 "2009-12-10T20:14:34Z")
Hell, you touch my son & I will kill you. But I am not trying to dress it up as justice, or indeed anything else other than revenge. ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2009, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-or-not/520544/90 "2009-12-10T20:40:09Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > If I saw the murder happen than it is undeniable he commited the murder and if justice does not happen that means it has been corrupted once too much and if possible must be corrected. First, the word you’re looking for is “then” not “than.” Second, if your only criteria for a “righteous kill” is that you saw the murder happen, then by that same criteria, someone who witnesses you killing the murderer could then kill you for the very same reason - they saw you unlawfully kill someone. I think there is room for a hypo where most would agree that they either would or would consider taking the murderer’s life, but such a scenario has many more qualifiers on it than you are offering. ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2009, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-or-not/520544/91 "2009-12-10T20:45:01Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > And nobody on earth looks like him either. I have to buy a ridiculous hypothetical and can not offer one of my own. > The world is not made of absolutes. You can make mistakes. The premise is flawed to start with and deliberately slanted . You can make mistakes. Well hell, by that logic we shouldn’t even arrest and try people since we might (might) accidentally have a doppelganger. The hypo is such that you know within the greatest degree of certainty attainable by man that you have the right guy. Seriously, you don’t have to fight this hypothetical to come out on the side of “vigilante justice is bad.” ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2009, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-or-not/520544/92 "2009-12-10T21:27:33Z")
> [@whole\_bean](#): > > Well hell, by that logic we shouldn’t even arrest and try people since we might (might) accidentally have a doppelganger. The hypo is such that you know within the greatest degree of certainty attainable by man that you have the right guy. Seriously, you don’t have to fight this hypothetical to come out on the side of “vigilante justice is bad.” Arresting is one thing. After you arrest them, you try to make sure you have the right person and then they’re tried in a court of law. There’s a system–not just, “I saw someone murder my loved one, I should get to kill them.” ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2009, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-or-not/520544/93 "2009-12-10T21:52:57Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Arresting is one thing. After you arrest them, you try to make sure you have the right person and then they’re tried in a court of law. There’s a system–not just, “I saw someone murder my loved one, I should get to kill them.” Look, the point of these hypotheticals is to isolate an issue - in this case, the concept of a righteous yet unsanctioned killing. This business of twins and doppelgangers is an act of fighting that hypothetical. Let’s just pretend there’s been a trial and an acquittal but you know the acquitted is actually guilty of killing your loved one and you also know you can kill the acquitted and suffer no legal consequence. Would you? You can answer this in the affirmatvie and still be opposed for logically consistent reasons to wholesale abandonment of our justice system, vigilante justice and captial punishment. Before responding, but what about twins/look-alikes/holograms/trials/witnesses/evidence/anything. . . . stop and reread this whole post once more. Repeat as necessary. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2009, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-or-not/520544/94 "2009-12-10T21:55:46Z")
> [@whole\_bean](#): > > Look, the point of these hypotheticals is to isolate an issue - in this case, the concept of a righteous yet unsanctioned killing. This business of twins and doppelgangers is an act of fighting that hypothetical. Let’s just pretend there’s been a trial and an acquittal but you know the acquitted is actually guilty of killing your loved one and you also know you can kill the acquitted and suffer no legal consequence. Would you? You can answer this in the affirmatvie and still be opposed for logically consistent reasons to wholesale abandonment of our justice system, vigilante justice and captial punishment. Before responding, but what about twins/look-alikes/holograms/trials/witnesses/evidence/anything. . . . stop and reread this whole post once more. Repeat as necessary. But that’s just it. I don’t think you can answer in the affirmative and still be for our justice system. The whole point of our justice system is you don’t get to pick and choose. It’s not like, “I believe in justice except for when it’s inconvenient.” It’s been quoted here before, but what of Blackstone’s formulation that “better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer.” ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2009, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-or-not/520544/95 "2009-12-10T22:48:14Z")
> [@whole\_bean](#): > > Well hell, by that logic we shouldn’t even arrest and try people since we might (might) accidentally have a doppelganger. The hypo is such that you know within the greatest degree of certainty attainable by man that you have the right guy. Seriously, you don’t have to fight this hypothetical to come out on the side of “vigilante justice is bad.” The logic is that when they have a trial, evidence is presented and justice is administered. If he has a twin, in trial they can find out where he was. There is this thing called evidence and sometimes seemingly sure things are wrong. It is the best system that man has devised for determining justice. That was of course until Curtis declared himself god, judge ,jury and executioner. ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2009, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-or-not/520544/96 "2009-12-10T23:09:03Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > But that’s just it. I don’t think you can answer in the affirmative and still be for our justice system. The whole point of our justice system is you don’t get to pick and choose. It’s not like, “I believe in justice except for when it’s inconvenient.” It’s been quoted here before, but what of Blackstone’s formulation that “better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer.” Sure you can. I do, and I am. Tell me how my positions are inconsistent. ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2009, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-or-not/520544/97 "2009-12-10T23:10:15Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > The logic is that when they have a trial, evidence is presented and justice is administered. If he has a twin, in trial they can find out where he was. There is this thing called evidence and sometimes seemingly sure things are wrong. It is the best system that man has devised for determining justice. That was of course until Curtis declared himself god, judge ,jury and executioner. Irrelevant. There has been a trial and a guilty man has been “exonerated.” You have the opportunity to kill him with no consequence. Do you avail yourself of it? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2009, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-or-not/520544/98 "2009-12-11T00:12:43Z")
I’ll quibble that acquittal does NOT equal exoneration, but then I’ll go ahead and answer “No,” because doing so would violate my moral code. ETA: And, yes, I recognize that you put “exonerated” in ““quotes””. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2009, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-or-not/520544/99 "2009-12-11T01:48:39Z")
> [@whole\_bean](#): > > Irrelevant. There has been a trial and a guilty man has been “exonerated.” You have the opportunity to kill him with no consequence. Do you avail yourself of it? No, What kind of sicko would I have to be to want to do that? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2009, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-or-not/520544/100 "2009-12-11T02:07:00Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > No, What kind of sicko would I have to be to want to do that? A sicko of justice, of course. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-or-not/520544.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justice-or-not/520544.md?page=6)