# Justified vigilantism? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 24, 2019, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justified-vigilantism/835978 "2019-06-24T18:55:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2019, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justified-vigilantism/835978/81 "2019-06-26T18:52:05Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > So she was just doing the police’s job for them. And where does something like that end? ---
**Author:** ![CaptMurdock](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/captmurdock/32/11736_2.png) [@CaptMurdock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaptMurdock)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2019, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justified-vigilantism/835978/82 "2019-06-27T00:13:08Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > So now this soon-to-be single mother of three should have a felony conviction, which can prevent her from obtaining housing and employment, because she was desperate to save her own life? That seems like “justice” to you? OK, then plead it down to trespassing. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2019, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justified-vigilantism/835978/83 "2019-06-27T01:28:43Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > And where does something like that end? So, you’re against Neighborhood Watches? Against video shared with the police? ---
**Author:** ![sps49sd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@sps49sd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sps49sd)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2019, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justified-vigilantism/835978/84 "2019-06-27T03:54:24Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > … And an assault rifle is much riskier than a blunt object or a knife… Assault rifles are capable of automatic fire; I doubt he had one. Assault weapons look scary. The various definitions are mostly cosmetic. ---
**Author:** ![sps49sd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@sps49sd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sps49sd)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2019, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justified-vigilantism/835978/85 "2019-06-27T03:58:27Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > So, you’re against Neighborhood Watches? Against video shared with the police? That is sharing information with the police, not policing one’s self. CHP would rather people did not enforce the speed limit by blocking faster moving cars, either. She confessed to a felony. If she is a first time offender and her allegation of the vehicle attack holds up, probation is a choice. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2019, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justified-vigilantism/835978/86 "2019-06-27T04:16:59Z")
> [@CaptMurdock](#): > > OK, then plead it down to trespassing. Why not just not prosecute her? The chance that she’d burglarize anyone else seems nonexistent to me, she has no history of previous burglaries and there were extenuating circumstances where she reasonably feared for not just her own safety but the safety of her children. She didn’t hurt anyone; she didn’t sell the guns for profit and she didn’t lie about what she did. What does society gain by prosecuting this woman at all? ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2019, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justified-vigilantism/835978/87 "2019-06-27T04:39:16Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > So, you’re against Neighborhood Watches? Against video shared with the police? Neither of these are the same thing as committing a burglary and you know it. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2019, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justified-vigilantism/835978/88 "2019-06-27T05:08:18Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > Neither of these are the same thing as committing a burglary and you know it. We were talking about taking on a police function. Yes, what she did was technically burglary, no one is disputing that. The question is whether it was justified to the point that the prosecutor would not bring charges. In your average burglary, the perp profits from it. If she had taken the guns home with her to use for self protection (their purpose in the home, right?) I think her judgement might be called into question. But she brought them straight to the police. It seems a question of what is more valuable - her life or the guns. Which side do you come down on? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2019, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justified-vigilantism/835978/89 "2019-06-27T05:13:46Z")
> [@sps49sd](#): > > That is sharing information with the police, not policing one’s self. > > CHP would rather people did not enforce the speed limit by blocking faster moving cars, either. > > She confessed to a felony. If she is a first time offender and her allegation of the vehicle attack holds up, probation is a choice. A young man walks past his parents house, near where he lives. He no longer has a key. They are away. He looks in, and sees a lamp which has been left on sparking. There is a risk of it catching fire and spreading that fire to the curtains. He knows that a window does not lock, so he opens it, takes the lamp, and brings it outside so that his parents will not turn it on again. A passing cop sees him and arrests him for burglary (he took the lamp) and breaking and entering. You are the prosecutor. Do you commend him from preventing a fire which might spread to other houses and out firefighters and neighbors at risk, or do you prosecute and maybe offer probation? If you feel generous. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2019, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justified-vigilantism/835978/90 "2019-06-27T05:38:11Z")
> [@sps49sd](#): > > Assault rifles are capable of automatic fire; I doubt he had one. > Assault weapons look scary. The various definitions are mostly cosmetic. No, it was an assault rifle. From the link in the OP: > [@](#): > > Courtney Irby spent six days in jail on charges of armed burglary and grand theft after she retrieved \*\*the assault rifle \*\*and handgun from her husband’s apartment and gave them to the Lakeland Police. I helpfully bolded the relevant part. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2019, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justified-vigilantism/835978/91 "2019-06-27T06:56:56Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > We were talking about taking on a police function. > Yes, what she did was technically burglary, no one is disputing that. The question is whether it was justified to the point that the prosecutor would not bring charges. > In your average burglary, the perp profits from it. If she had taken the guns home with her to use for self protection (their purpose in the home, right?) I think her judgement might be called into question. But she brought them straight to the police. Except we once had a guy break into his neighbors house and flush a bunch of cocaine and pills down the toilet that he found in a locked desk because he was sick of them being sold in his neighborhood. Except Mr. Drug Dealer had cameras in his house. The burglary charge stuck. Mr DD wasn’t charged with anything because without testing them there is no way to know if the powder and pills were actually anything illegal. If the OP wants to argue ethics, fine. But legally this isn’t a road we want to go down. > [@nelliebly](#): > > No, it was an assault rifle. From the link in the OP **sps49sd** argument is just semantics, though he is actually correct. What the media and Dianne Feinstein call “assault weap:rolleyes:ns” are nothing more that scary looking semi-automatic rifles. Take the receiver off and put it on a wood stock and suddenly it’s a common hunting rifle though it functions the same and has the same capacity, etc… Just doesn’t look as spooky. An actual assault weapon is fully automatic, requires a special federal license, and are tens of thousands of dollars. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2019, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justified-vigilantism/835978/92 "2019-06-27T14:53:58Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > Whence this magical place she can whisk her kids off to and never have to worry about the evil abuser? Where did she put them while she was in jail? Still don’t see why she didn’t steal his car too, with somewhat more justification. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2019, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justified-vigilantism/835978/93 "2019-06-27T15:08:15Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Where did she put them while she was in jail? Don’t know. Are you assuming they are perfectly safe now just because it fits your narrative, and if it turned out that they _weren’t_ safe from the ex would it matter to you? ---
**Author:** ![Translucent\_Daydream](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/translucent_daydream/32/16170_2.png) [@Translucent\_Daydream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Translucent_Daydream)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2019, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justified-vigilantism/835978/94 "2019-06-27T15:32:18Z")
I can tell you about how well police take away the guns from a man with a domestic assault charge and a restraining order against him from his ex-wife. They fucking don’t. And they could have. How do I know this? One of my best friends in high school’s mother was beaten up so bad her eyes were swollen shut. Police were called, arrested the dude, put him in the drunk tank, and let him go in the morning after the restraining order was filed. According to my friend, the police at the scene processed paperwork for the guns to be removed and held at the police station. Apparently there is another hearing for it, that was scheduled at a later date. It didn’t come fast enough. When he got dropped off three days later at home, the guy had come home about an hour before, and shot her in the head, spraying her blood, skull, and brains all over the kitchen door. The kitchen door he walked through when he went home. He got to see that. And the fun part is he stole my friend’s truck and to my knowledge, hasn’t been found to this day. Yeah I don’t have any sympathy for the piece of shit that tried to kill his ex wife. Fuck him. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2019, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justified-vigilantism/835978/95 "2019-06-27T15:38:48Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > Except we once had a guy break into his neighbors house and flush a bunch of cocaine and pills down the toilet that he found in a locked desk because he was sick of them being sold in his neighborhood. > > Except Mr. Drug Dealer had cameras in his house. The burglary charge stuck. Mr DD wasn’t charged with anything because without testing them there is no way to know if the powder and pills were actually anything illegal. > > If the OP wants to argue ethics, fine. But legally this isn’t a road we want to go down. I could see a prosecutor acting to discourage vigilantism. The case in question isn’t that, it is self defense. But prosecutors are not required to prosecute all cases which are technical violations of the law, so ethics does enter into it. Ethically, she did nothing wrong. ---
**Author:** ![sps49sd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@sps49sd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sps49sd)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2019, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justified-vigilantism/835978/96 "2019-06-27T15:40:14Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > A young man walks past his parents house, near where he lives. He no longer has a key. They are away. He looks in, and sees a lamp which has been left on sparking. There is a risk of it catching fire and spreading that fire to the curtains. > He knows that a window does not lock, so he opens it, takes the lamp, and brings it outside so that his parents will not turn it on again. > > A passing cop sees him and arrests him for burglary (he took the lamp) and breaking and entering. > You are the prosecutor. Do you commend him from preventing a fire which might spread to other houses and out firefighters and neighbors at risk, or do you prosecute and maybe offer probation? If you feel generous. Nothing about your oddly specific and very unlikely hypothetical matches the event being discussed. ---
**Author:** ![sps49sd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@sps49sd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sps49sd)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2019, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justified-vigilantism/835978/97 "2019-06-27T15:44:30Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I could see a prosecutor acting to discourage vigilantism. The case in question isn’t that, it is self defense. > But prosecutors are not required to prosecute all cases which are technical violations of the law, so ethics does enter into it. Ethically, she did nothing wrong. It isn’t even self defense. The danger needs to be “imminent”, as in Right Now. She was worried about something her ex \*might \*attempt _later on_. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2019, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justified-vigilantism/835978/98 "2019-06-27T15:46:53Z")
Was the guy actually convicted of assault? ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2019, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justified-vigilantism/835978/99 "2019-06-27T16:18:01Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > A young man walks past his parents house, near where he lives. He no longer has a key. They are away. He looks in, and sees a lamp which has been left on sparking. There is a risk of it catching fire and spreading that fire to the curtains. > He knows that a window does not lock, so he opens it, takes the lamp, and brings it outside so that his parents will not turn it on again. > > A passing cop sees him and arrests him for burglary (he took the lamp) and breaking and entering. > You are the prosecutor. Do you commend him from preventing a fire which might spread to other houses and out firefighters and neighbors at risk, or do you prosecute and maybe offer probation? If you feel generous. In this specific example I would commend him for preventing a fire. I would not press charges for breaking and entering unless there was evidence that he did other things while in the house or I had reason to believe he fabricated the story about sparks. If the parents were estranged and asked me to press charges for stealing the lamp, I would chastise him for taking the lamp off the premises, because simply unplugging the lamp removes the immediate threat of fire. I presume he could have informed his parents not to use that particular lamp. If not he could have unplugged the lamp and then called police then and there - “I saw sparks coming from a lamp in my parent’s house so I broke in and unplugged it. I can’t reach them by phone and I don’t want them to plug it back in and start a fire. What should I do?”. If he didn’t have a phone at the time we have a real conundrum about intent. It is best left to a jury to decide such things. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2019, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justified-vigilantism/835978/100 "2019-06-27T16:30:19Z")
Do you mean the guy from the OP? The one who rammed his car into his wife’s car? Not the guy **Translucent Daydream** brought up? I don’t think he’s had time for prosecution to occur. Still waiting on a court date, I imagine. Does that matter? He has a charge against him and a protective order in place. The law says having a protective order in place is sufficient to require turning over the weapons. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justified-vigilantism/835978.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justified-vigilantism/835978.md?page=6)