# Justify illegal immigration to me
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justify-illegal-immigration-to-me/509697
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [September 11, 2009, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justify-illegal-immigration-to-me/509697 "2009-09-11T15:44:33Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)
#### Post date: [September 11, 2009, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justify-illegal-immigration-to-me/509697/1 "2009-09-11T15:44:33Z")
1 They’re making a better life for themselves
Then by all rights, I should be allowed to rob banks. Why not? So what if it’s against the law. An extra $5000 per month would certainly help out my family. And why we’re on the subject, would any of you care to explain why Vincente Fox, while President of Mexico, criticized the US for not allowing his citizen to illegally come here to improve their life yet had armed troops along the Guatemalan border to shoot on sight anyone illegally entering HIS country?
2 They do the jobs no one else will do
Remind me again what the unemployment rate is again? Maybe the reason that no one cleans toilets for minimum wage is that at a certain point, jobs follow the supply and demand curve and by offering a job for less than it’s worth, you are creating an artificial shortage of workers. This argument reminds me a lot of why we have child labor laws because it has nothing to do with child welfare. You see, employers realized that they could pay children a lot less for crappy jobs than adults so child labor laws were put in place so that adults could make enough support their families. And incidentally, if no one wants to wash dishes for $6 an hour, why are you saying it’s ok for the employer to break Federal law just so he can save money by not paying $9 an hour?
3 They’re not hurting anyone
Really? Why are there breakouts of diseases every couple of years? Could it be that people are coming in without being medically tested? And don’t we have enough problems with homegrown criminals to let people in without background checks? When an illegal immigrant without an SSN can’t get insurance, who pays the bill when they’re in an auto accident or need health care? How much do illegal immigrants cost states and counties in education and welfare costs?
And in case you didn’t know, according to SCOTUS, an illegal immigrant does count as a resident when apportioning Representatives. Theoretically a state with 1 citizen and 99,999 illegal immigrants gets enough reps for 100,000 people. Why do you care? About 1/12 of California’s population are illegal immigrants which means they have 5 more Representatives because of illegal immigration (not even counting ones granted amnesty over the years). Add Texas and Florida to the mix and one can see that American citizens in low illegal immigration states are being denied their fair allotment of Representatives and Electoral votes.
4 Anti-illegal immigration = racism
I should use this as an example of the perfect strawman fallacy. Being against ILLEGAL immigration does not imply being against immigration and certainly does not advocate deporting citizens of Mexican (or any other) background. Most anti-illegal immigration people have no problem with people (Mexican or otherwise) coming here legally.
5 Your ancestors were illegal immigrant
Ummm . . . what law did they break in settling here? Call this Tu Quoque or a Two Wrongs Make a Right or “I should be allow to do drugs since you smoked weed in college”. A fallacy by any other name is still as invalid.
6 Coming here legally is onerous
This I would agree with but if this justified breaking Federal immigration law, then there’s a lot of Federal regulations that would not be followed (like taxes). I played around with moving to England for a time to finish my doctorate. You should try to immigrate THERE. The reality is that countries have a right to limit immigration to people that will benefit, or at least not drain, the resources of the country.
---
### Author:  [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)
#### Post date: [September 11, 2009, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justify-illegal-immigration-to-me/509697/2 "2009-09-11T15:46:38Z")
There’s really only one justification: It costs more to prevent than it’s worth.
I’m just not sure how true that is.
---
### Author:  [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)
#### Post date: [September 11, 2009, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justify-illegal-immigration-to-me/509697/3 "2009-09-11T16:02:17Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#):
>
> 2 They do the jobs no one else will do
> Remind me again what the unemployment rate is again? Maybe the reason that no one cleans toilets for minimum wage is that at a certain point, jobs follow the supply and demand curve and by offering a job for less than it’s worth, you are creating an artificial shortage of workers. This argument reminds me a lot of why we have child labor laws because it has nothing to do with child welfare. You see, employers realized that they could pay children a lot less for crappy jobs than adults so child labor laws were put in place so that adults could make enough support their families. And incidentally, if no one wants to wash dishes for $6 an hour, why are you saying it’s ok for the employer to break Federal law just so he can save money by not paying $9 an hour?
While laws may be broken the reality is there are some industries that would collapse in the US without access to cheap, migrant labor. Ask any farmer who relies on them for harvest. I saw an interview with a farmer who said if he had to pay minimum wage he’d go out of business. Period. Your apples from some other country would be cheaper.
He also noted that US workers sucked in comparison. The migrant laborers bust their balls and work tirelessly. US workers want breaks and overtime and days off and call in sick, won’t work when the weather sucks and so on.
Right or wrong those are the realities today. Pull the plug on migrant workers I hope you have an answer for what to do when industries in the US that rely on this go belly up and put alot of US workers out of work as well as buying our food from foreign sources.
---
### Author:  [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)
#### Post date: [September 11, 2009, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justify-illegal-immigration-to-me/509697/4 "2009-09-11T16:12:32Z")
But dude, people can’t live with less than minimum wage. They’ll die!
But yes, it would certainly affect the US economy to boot illegals. Any such process would need to be gradual and consistent.
---
### Author:  [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)
#### Post date: [September 11, 2009, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justify-illegal-immigration-to-me/509697/5 "2009-09-11T16:14:43Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#):
>
> While laws may be broken the reality is there are some industries that would collapse in the US without access to cheap, migrant labor. Ask any farmer who relies on them for harvest. I saw an interview with a farmer who said if he had to pay minimum wage he’d go out of business. Period. Your apples from some other country would be cheaper.
>
> He also noted that US workers sucked in comparison. The migrant laborers bust their balls and work tirelessly. US workers want breaks and overtime and days off and call in sick, won’t work when the weather sucks and so on.
>
> Right or wrong those are the realities today. Pull the plug on migrant workers I hope you have an answer for what to do when industries in the US that rely on this go belly up and put alot of US workers out of work as well as buying our food from foreign sources.
Which would be a great argument for illegal immigration _if there weren’t already programs in place to legally supply those workers_.
And I love how a worker actually protecting their legal rights for breaks and overtime are characterized as "suck"ing. Maybe we should all dispense with our breaks and lunchtime and not get time and a half for that 40-60 hours of work during the week.
---
### Author:  [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)
#### Post date: [September 11, 2009, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justify-illegal-immigration-to-me/509697/6 "2009-09-11T16:17:36Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#):
>
> 1 They’re making a better life for themselves
> Then by all rights, I should be allowed to rob banks.
If the banks will hire you to rob them, why not?
Meh, you should just throw the borders open and freely admit anyone who can pass a basic health and background check. And legalize drugs while you’re at it, already.
---
### Author:  [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)
#### Post date: [September 11, 2009, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justify-illegal-immigration-to-me/509697/7 "2009-09-11T16:25:22Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#):
>
> Which would be a great argument for illegal immigration _if there weren’t already programs in place to legally supply those workers_.
>
> And I love how a worker actually protecting their legal rights for breaks and overtime are characterized as "suck"ing. Maybe we should all dispense with our breaks and lunchtime and not get time and a half for that 40-60 hours of work during the week.
I am not aware of the programs in place to provide below minimum wage workers to farmers. Not saying there isn’t one but if you could point it out I’ll go have a look.
And hey, I am all for workers’ rights and being allowed to have reasonable breaks and such. Indeed the migrant workers stop for lunch and such and there is no fuss I am aware of. Nevertheless the farmer who I saw in the interview suggested the migrant farmers work harder overall than US workers who demand more of their rights. Right or wrong from the farmers perspective he gets the harvest done faster and for less money. I do not think slave taskmasters with whips are driving the workers. They just work like that. The faster they get a given harvest done the faster they can move to the next farm thus earning more money.
---
### Author:  [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)
#### Post date: [September 11, 2009, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justify-illegal-immigration-to-me/509697/8 "2009-09-11T16:27:46Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#):
>
> But dude, people can’t live with less than minimum wage. They’ll die!
As I understand it migrant workers live insanely frugally to be able to have as much money as possible to send/go home with. While they are certainly poor I believe they could manage somewhat better but choose to do it this way to save as much money as possible.
---
### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [September 11, 2009, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justify-illegal-immigration-to-me/509697/9 "2009-09-11T17:09:52Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#):
>
> 1 They’re making a better life for themselves
> Then by all rights, I should be allowed to rob banks. Why not?
There is an important difference between [_malum prohibitum_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malum_prohibitum) and [_malum in se,_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malum_in_se) as I’m sure any Doper who smokes pot would enthusiastically agree.
---
### Author:  [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)
#### Post date: [September 11, 2009, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justify-illegal-immigration-to-me/509697/10 "2009-09-11T17:11:26Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#):
>
> I saw an interview with a farmer who said if he had to pay minimum wage he’d go out of business. Period. Your apples from some other country would be cheaper.
>
> He also noted that US workers sucked in comparison. The migrant laborers bust their balls and work tirelessly. US workers want breaks and overtime and days off and call in sick, won’t work when the weather sucks and so on.
>
> Right or wrong those are the realities today. Pull the plug on migrant workers I hope you have an answer for what to do when industries in the US that rely on this go belly up and put alot of US workers out of work as well as buying our food from foreign sources.
Are we talking about illegal or legal migrant workers?
If hiring U.S workers is incompatible with profits, then the farmer should charge more of the goods or eat it at a loss. Now, if this is a REAL concern, then I see the solution as having the government subsdize minimum wage employment to farm workers or working with State agencies to use prison workers. Bringing illegal workers in here because they work “harder and cheaper” has as much logic as illegally downloading music from Napster beause albums “cost too much”.
Let’s say we forced all of the farmers to pay minimum wage plus benefits. Will domestic-made apples, grapes, cotton, wine, corn skyrocket by 3000% at the supermarket?
To the OP: I’m liberal as they come and I want all of the illegal immigrants out. It is nothing personal but they don’t belong here.
---
### Author:  [@Dioptre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dioptre)
#### Post date: [September 11, 2009, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justify-illegal-immigration-to-me/509697/11 "2009-09-11T17:35:37Z")
Laws should be judged on their effect, not their intent.
If prohibiting undocumented migration prevented undocumented migration, that would be a different set of circumstances to a system which prohibits undocumented migration and then uses the fact that such migration is “illegal” to exploit a labor source that can’t claim legal protections.
---
### Author:  [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)
#### Post date: [September 11, 2009, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justify-illegal-immigration-to-me/509697/12 "2009-09-11T17:40:20Z")
Here’s my justification. If you want cheap labor, here it is. A country never went broke because of an abundance of cheap labor.
Another justification for illegal immigration is that immigration law is bullshit. It’s a lot harder for a poor brown person to legally cross the border than for a rich white person.
---
### Author:  [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)
#### Post date: [September 11, 2009, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justify-illegal-immigration-to-me/509697/13 "2009-09-11T17:41:06Z")
> [@Honesty](#):
>
> Are we talking about illegal or legal migrant workers?
>
> If hiring U.S workers is incompatible with profits, then the farmer should charge more of the goods or eat it at a loss. Now, if this is a REAL concern, then I see the solution as having the government subsdize minimum wage employment to farm workers or working with State agencies to use prison workers. Bringing illegal workers in here because they work “harder and cheaper” has as much logic as illegally downloading music from Napster beause albums “cost too much”.
>
> Let’s say we forced all of the farmers to pay minimum wage plus benefits. Will domestic-made apples, grapes, cotton, wine, corn skyrocket by 3000% at the supermarket?
Hmm…some stats (seems, for the most part, the low wage migrant workforce earns a bit better than minimum wage):
> [@](#):
>
> - Immigrants compose an increasingly large share of the U.S. labor force and a growing share of low-wage workers. Immigrants are 11 percent of all U.S. residents, but 14 percent of all workers and 20 percent of low-wage workers.
>
> - Two of every five low-wage immigrant workers are undocumented. Labor force participation is higher among undocumented men than among men who are legal immigrants or U.S. citizens.
>
> - Although immigrants dominate a few low-wage occupations—farming and private household workers—immigrants in these occupations represent a small share of all low-wage foreign-born workers.
>
> Nearly half (48 percent) of all immigrant workers earned less than 200 percent of the minimum wage, compared with 32 percent of native workers. The average low-wage immigrant worker earned $14,400 in 2001.
>
> Of the 17.9 million foreign-born workers in the United States, some 12.7 million are here legally. Thirty-four percent of immigrant workers are naturalized citizens, 34 percent are legal immigrants (including refugees), and 29 percent are undocumented. Compared to the workforce in general, the low-wage labor force has a higher share of undocumented immigrants and a lower share of naturalized citizens. Of the 8.6 million low-wage immigrant workers, 3.4 million (40 percent) are undocumented. Less than a quarter (23 percent) are naturalized citizens.
>
> Immigrant workers represent an especially large share of the total U.S. labor force in two major occupation groups: private household services (42 percent are immigrants), and farming, forestry, and fishing (37 percent). Looking only at low-wage immigrant workers, the share is even higher (44 percent in each) (table 3). Workers in these two occupations are the least well paid and the most likely to be foreign-born of all major occupational groups tracked by the Census. Even so, only 6 percent of all immigrant workers and 10 percent of low-wage immigrant workers hold jobs in these occupations.
>
> SOURCE: [http://www.urban.org/Publications/310880.html](http://www.urban.org/Publications/310880.html)
Assuming a 2080 hour work year (40 hours/week \* 52 weeks) federal minimum wage in 2001 would get you $10,712/year (compared to the average low wage earner getting $14,400).
On the whole though the illegal immigrant workforce does not seem especially substantial relatively speaking (5.19 million all told or a bit less than 2% of the US population back in 2001).
So, I guess the question is (or should be) do they cost us more to keep out than they take away from taxpayers? How much is returned via the US taxpayer benefiting from the cheap labor they provide?
---
### Author:  [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)
#### Post date: [September 11, 2009, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justify-illegal-immigration-to-me/509697/14 "2009-09-11T19:12:10Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton]
There is an important difference between malum prohibitum and malum in se, as I’m sure any Doper who smokes pot would enthusiastically agree.
[/QUOTE]
Fair enough.
I should be allowed to not pay taxes since the extra 25% of my income makes a better life for my family.
I should be allowed to run numbers or sell oxycotin and sawed-off shotguns on the streets since the extra money will help my family have a better life.
[QUOTE=Mosier]
Here’s my justification. If you want cheap labor, here it is. A country never went broke because of an abundance of cheap labor.
Another justification for illegal immigration is that immigration law is bullshit. It’s a lot harder for a poor brown person to legally cross the border than for a rich white person.
[/QUOTE]
I don’t think you read the OP otherwise you would tell me how low the unemployment rate for US citizens that we need cheap foreign labor.
You don’t explain why they do not use the systems in place to provide cheap foreign labor.
Way to make this about racism. If it is about brown and white then pray tell how easy it is for a poor white foreign national to immigrate or how difficult for a rich brown (or black or yellow) to do it.
And if the immigration laws should be dismissed becaused the are racially enforced, then should we ignore ANY felony that is racially enforced?
---
### Author:  [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)
#### Post date: [September 11, 2009, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justify-illegal-immigration-to-me/509697/15 "2009-09-11T20:40:03Z")
> [@Honesty](#):
>
> Are we talking about illegal or legal migrant workers?
>
> If hiring U.S workers is incompatible with profits, then the farmer should charge more of the goods or eat it at a loss. Now, if this is a REAL concern, then I see the solution as having the government subsdize minimum wage employment to farm workers or working with State agencies to use prison workers. Bringing illegal workers in here because they work “harder and cheaper” has as much logic as illegally downloading music from Napster beause albums “cost too much”.
>
> Let’s say we forced all of the farmers to pay minimum wage plus benefits. Will domestic-made apples, grapes, cotton, wine, corn skyrocket by 3000% at the supermarket?
> To the OP: I’m liberal as they come and I want all of the illegal immigrants out. It is nothing personal but they don’t belong here.
I agree. I’m also quite liberal. But our immigration laws should be based on what is good for Americans not what is good for immigrants. Skilled English speakers are welcome. Unskilled, undereducated non-English speakers or those with serious medical conditions should not be.
That’s how the Canadians do it. I don’t see why we shouldn’t follow them.
---
### Author:  [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)
#### Post date: [September 11, 2009, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justify-illegal-immigration-to-me/509697/16 "2009-09-11T20:44:57Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#):
>
> 1 They’re making a better life for themselves
> Then by all rights, I should be allowed to rob banks. Why not? So what if it’s against the law. An extra $5000 per month would certainly help out my family. And why we’re on the subject, would any of you care to explain why Vincente Fox, while President of Mexico, criticized the US for not allowing his citizen to illegally come here to improve their life yet had armed troops along the Guatemalan border to shoot on sight anyone illegally entering HIS country?
In many cases it’s a better analogy of stealing bread to feed your kids, instead of robbing banks. Put a different, say America went down the crapper, It’s 10x worse than the great depression. Canada, however, is somehow doing great, better then the US was in the late 90s.
Decent food, and sometimes any food, for your family is a luxery at best. Would you sneak into Canada for work to feed them?
---
### Author:  [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)
#### Post date: [September 11, 2009, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justify-illegal-immigration-to-me/509697/17 "2009-09-11T21:52:57Z")
For me, it’s simple: none of us own this world, and we shouldn’t be able to draw imaginary lines around where people are born and tell them they can’t cross.
[Assuming you were born here] Did you earn your citizenship? Do you think you own this country?
If people want to organize and say, “in this area, we’re going to live by these laws,” (the development of countries) fine by me, as long as those laws are respectful of human rights and dignity, but one of those laws should not be “nanner nanner boo boo, you keep on knockin’ but you can’t come in.”
---
### Author:  [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)
#### Post date: [September 11, 2009, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justify-illegal-immigration-to-me/509697/18 "2009-09-11T22:07:16Z")
I don’t think many people are actively for more illegal immigration, barring perhaps those who employ them. Even those of us who are for more immigration in general would rather see reasonable legal means to do it. So I’m not really sure who exactly you think is going to “justify” illegal immigration to you.
---
### Author:  [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)
#### Post date: [September 11, 2009, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justify-illegal-immigration-to-me/509697/19 "2009-09-11T22:07:46Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#):
>
> In many cases it’s a better analogy of stealing bread to feed your kids, instead of robbing banks. Put a different, say America went down the crapper, It’s 10x worse than the great depression. Canada, however, is somehow doing great, better then the US was in the late 90s.
>
> Decent food, and sometimes any food, for your family is a luxery at best. Would you sneak into Canada for work to feed them?
What is this? Fivel: The Great American Tail? Mexico is a sovereign nation with its own economy and resources. I understand that some areas of Mexico don’t have water treatment and many live in poverty. This is unacceptable but if the Mexican government needs help, why hasn’t it sought help from the United States or the United Nations?
Illegal immigrants are here illegal. While I wholeheartedly support ER treatment for illegals, they deserve none of the rights and privileges that are afforded to U.S citizens. Otherwise, what would be the point of being a U.S citizen? If they want treatment, they should have to pay full price. I also think that the illegals are on the right track by boycotting the Census. Federal dollars should not be given to States for for illegals. If the taxpayers in Los Angeles, New York CIty, and other illegal immigrant harboring cities want to fund illegals, then that money should be pulled from the dollars gathered from local municipalities or the State.
---
### Author:  [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)
#### Post date: [September 11, 2009, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justify-illegal-immigration-to-me/509697/20 "2009-09-11T22:14:54Z")
The ones who support illegal immigration are those who _hire_ them.
[Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justify-illegal-immigration-to-me/509697.md?page=2)