# Justify illegal immigration to me **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 11, 2009, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justify-illegal-immigration-to-me/509697 "2009-09-11T15:44:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justify-illegal-immigration-to-me/509697/81 "2009-09-12T14:32:15Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > Mu understanding is that non-Mexican nationals can not individually buy property within a certain distance from the coast for their own homes. There are various shady schemes to get around this by using a national, but it is technically illegal. On the other hand, foreign companies can buy coastal properties to develop commercially. > > [Cite](http://www.peoplesguide.com/1pages/retire/house/buy/1buy-index.html). > > Also, I was under the impression that Salvadorians, Guatamelans, and others are crossing illegally into Mexico through the southern border. If there were no restrictions on immigration I don’t know why they would do it illegally. > > Wiki: > > If I am wrong on these points I’d like to know, especially since I really like Mexico and have considered living there. The purchase of property in the restricted zone is done through a bank trust. A completely legal and safe manner to do so. The shady way you refer to a called _presta nombre_ and means putting the land in a citizens name. This is illegal and is full of risk. The cases where foreigners lose their property this way are legend. It is due however to their own stupidity. Would you put the title of your home in the US in the name of someone else? Foreign corporations cannot own land. A Mexican corporation must br constituted. It can be solely foreign owned. This is a straightforward process. I recently helped some people fom Seattle register their corporation in order for them to do a small 12 home development on the coast of Jalisco. To acquire a work permit, you must meet certain requirements. For the most part it is an easy process. But there are restrictions. One thing that makes it prohibitive for Central Americans is ignorance of the process. Another is they are unable to afford the fees. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justify-illegal-immigration-to-me/509697/82 "2009-09-12T14:34:08Z")
It may have been said, but here’s my justification. If you were living in a shithole, wouldn’t you want to move somewhere where they seem to have more opportunities? ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justify-illegal-immigration-to-me/509697/83 "2009-09-12T15:36:05Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#): > > The purchase of property in the restricted zone is done through a bank trust. A completely legal and safe manner to do so. The shady way you refer to a called _presta nombre_ and means putting the land in a citizens name. This is illegal and is full of risk. The cases where foreigners lose their property this way are legend. It is due however to their own stupidity. Would you put the title of your home in the US in the name of someone else? > > Foreign corporations cannot own land. A Mexican corporation must br constituted. It can be solely foreign owned. This is a straightforward process. I recently helped some people fom Seattle register their corporation in order for them to do a small 12 home development on the coast of Jalisco. > > To acquire a work permit, you must meet certain requirements. For the most part it is an easy process. But there are restrictions. One thing that makes it prohibitive for Central Americans is ignorance of the process. Another is they are unable to afford the fees. So then you were wrong when you said I was wrong that there were restrictions on foreigners owning coastal property and working in Mexico. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justify-illegal-immigration-to-me/509697/84 "2009-09-12T15:37:37Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > It may have been said, but here’s my justification. If you were living in a shithole, wouldn’t you want to move somewhere where they seem to have more opportunities? No one is arguing that illegal immigrants may be doing it for good reasons, that does not mean that regulating immigration is not also for good reason. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justify-illegal-immigration-to-me/509697/85 "2009-09-12T15:38:38Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > It may have been said, but here’s my justification. If you were living in a shithole, wouldn’t you want to move somewhere where they seem to have more opportunities? I believe that living in poverty does not give someone the right to violate the law. Somehow many of these argument boil down to their live suck in Mexico and they should be allow to improve it here. I agree as long as they do it LEGALLY like through the immigration process or work visas. See that! No excluded middle fallacy. But Cad, the immigration process is horrible. You don’t understand! Oh really? I looked at moving my family to England and basically decided I couldn’t do it. As a foreign taught teacher, I do not have my QTS and so if I could even find a job with 2 masters degrees and 13 years experience I still couldn’t get a living wage until I go BACK to school and qualify (and how do I pay tuition when I can’t afford to eat?). There’s more but I think that suffices to say that I do empathize and we should reform the immigration law and bring back the Bracero Program . . . But we cannot dismiss laws simply because we disagree with how they are administered. The arguments supporting illegal immigration could work just as well to support tax protests - but I dare say most of you feel a moral or at least legal obligation to obey that law. Also, I think that it has been shown that the idea that illegal immigrants do the job many others won’t do is a canard. They cannot get better jobs without documents and so they are an easily exploitable workforce who don’t complain about little things like breaks, overtime, and minimum wage . . . you know, the labor rights that if we actually try to protect get us labled as “sucking”. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justify-illegal-immigration-to-me/509697/86 "2009-09-12T15:39:37Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > No one is arguing that illegal immigrants may be doing it for good reasons, that does not mean that regulating immigration is not also for good reason. Yes, but a country the size of yours is one of the last places that should be doing it, especially when everything you have is a result of immigration. ---
**Author:** ![Gozu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gozu/32/6615_2.png) [@Gozu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gozu)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justify-illegal-immigration-to-me/509697/87 "2009-09-12T16:01:13Z")
A free man should be able to go anywhere he is able to and work any honest job he wants for a living. Any law that says different is wrong. Ta-daaa! Illegal immigration justified! What was so hard about that? ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justify-illegal-immigration-to-me/509697/88 "2009-09-12T16:08:11Z")
> [@Dioptre](#): > > “They’re placing demand on services” - just like any working population, they pay tax and use services. Where’s the wrong Do they? I thought one of the main ‘border control’ arguments was that employers would pay illegal immigrants under the table, because if they tried to pay them properly, the illegal immigrants would be kicked out. And because they’re being paid under the table, they don’t pay income tax on it. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justify-illegal-immigration-to-me/509697/89 "2009-09-12T16:11:37Z")
> [@Gozu](#): > > A free man should be able to go anywhere he is able to and work any honest job he wants for a living. A free man should be able to give any money he wants to anyone he wants without being taxed for it. A free man should be able to take any car he wants if he wants it and it is driveable. A free man should be able to do anything to his wife in the privacy of his own home. Any laws that say different are just wrong. See, I can assert things too\*! - I do not believe in any of the above positions. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justify-illegal-immigration-to-me/509697/90 "2009-09-12T16:13:28Z")
> [@pedescribe](#): > > A free man should be able to give any money he wants to anyone he wants without being taxed for it. > > A free man should be able to take any car he wants if he wants it and it is driveable. > > A free man should be able to do anything to his wife in the privacy of his own home. > > Any laws that say different are just wrong. > > See, I can assert things too\*! > > - I do not believe in any of the above positions. There’s nothing wrong with the first one, if you’ve already been taxed on earning it. ---
**Author:** ![Dioptre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/278dde/32.png) [@Dioptre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dioptre)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justify-illegal-immigration-to-me/509697/91 "2009-09-12T16:18:13Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > It would appear to me that the onus on you is prove that our current legal immigration process does not have reasonable objectives and that legal immigrants are not treated humanely and protected by labor law. > > The US has a system for legal immigration that prioritizes those with needed skills and family members of current residents. Both of those are reasonable objectives. To the degree that illegal immigrants arrive in large numbers, they place pressure on our policies to limit legal immigration. As for being treated humanely, immigrants who are legally permitted to work are covered by all the same labor laws as citizens. The same applies to all of our laws and constitutional rights, with the exception that non-citizens can be repatriated if they break our laws. > > Most other countries treat immigrants far shabbily than the United States. Children born here are automatically US citizens. That is not true in many other countries. Some countries have generations of people who have lived there without the ability to become citizens. The existance of legal immigration channels, and the reasonableness of legal restrictions is not an argument against appropriate treatment of people who don’t come under that system. I was clearly talking about undocumented immigration, so asking me to demonstrate that documented “legal migrants” aren’t treated fairly is a furfy. I’ll say it again clearly - the method of dealing with undocmented migrants must have reasonable objectives and result in humane treatment. And just to be ultra-clear - if “preventing all undocumented immigration” is an objective of the current system, the system is not coming close to meeting this objective, and it is not the immigrants who are responsible for this failure - punishing them for the failure is neither humane nor appropriate. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justify-illegal-immigration-to-me/509697/92 "2009-09-12T16:37:18Z")
> [@pedescribe](#): > > Do they? I thought one of the main ‘border control’ arguments was that employers would pay illegal immigrants under the table, because if they tried to pay them properly, the illegal immigrants would be kicked out. And because they’re being paid under the table, they don’t pay income tax on it. No, many of them pay income tax with taxid numbers or fake social security numbers. The number of them who work “under the table” is probably no larger than the number of American teenagers, contractors, and handymen who do so. And “taxes” are more than just income taxes. They’re still paying sales tax and property tax, unless you think they’re homeless and somehow manage to live here without spending a dime. ---
**Author:** ![tumbleddown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@tumbleddown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tumbleddown)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justify-illegal-immigration-to-me/509697/93 "2009-09-12T17:07:04Z")
> [@pedescribe](#): > > A free man should be able to give any money he wants to anyone he wants without being taxed for it. > > A free man should be able to take any car he wants if he wants it and it is driveable. > > A free man should be able to do anything to his wife in the privacy of his own home. > > Any laws that say different are just wrong. > > See, I can assert things too\*! > > - I do not believe in any of the above positions. I’m not sure what you mean by the first, but your second and third assertions are not reasonably analogous to the notion of undocumented immigration because they are direct deprivations of the liberty of an individual. Your right to your property or to be secure in your own person is not affected in any way by the mere fact of someone’s existence within certain geographical borders. ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justify-illegal-immigration-to-me/509697/94 "2009-09-12T17:27:35Z")
Immigration laws, as set up currently, are fundamentally immoral. It isn’t right to treat people differently based on their place of birth, any more than on the colour of their skin. There’s only one morally justified reason for border control based on nationality, which is to stop actual invading armies from coming in. I’m reasonably sure that the current crop of undocumented entries to rich western countries in search of jobs picking fruit and driving taxis aren’t planning on starting revolutions or overthrowing the government. The reason Western countries enforce immigration laws, generally, is that it would tend to flow money out of rich western hands and towards developing-world hands, and that would be damned inconvenient for us, since we kind of like being richer than the bulk of the world, and enjoying the goodies this allows us to buy. Nothing morally wrong with breaking a law like that. I’d break it myself if I were in a position to need to. ---
**Author:** ![Gozu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gozu/32/6615_2.png) [@Gozu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gozu)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justify-illegal-immigration-to-me/509697/95 "2009-09-12T18:12:12Z")
But my assertion is good and some of yours are obviously wrong! It’s not my fault you can’t make good assertions. Don’t lump diamonds with dirt and call both garbage. It’s just unfair. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justify-illegal-immigration-to-me/509697/96 "2009-09-12T19:07:23Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > If the banks will hire you to rob them, why not? > Meh, you should just throw the borders open and freely admit anyone who can pass a basic health and background check. And legalize drugs while you’re at it, already. [http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,193702,00.html](http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,193702,00.html) Mexico realizes that fighting drugs is a huge waste of money and does not work. They will legalize drugs long before our puritan country does.. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justify-illegal-immigration-to-me/509697/97 "2009-09-12T19:13:04Z")
> [@Gozu](#): > > A free man should be able to go anywhere he is able to and work any honest job he wants for a living. > > Any law that says different is wrong. > > Ta-daaa! Illegal immigration justified! > > What was so hard about that? A free country should be able to pass any law that gives its own citizens a decent chance of obtaining any honest job she/he wants for a living. Any other country that says different is wrong. Ta-daaa! Protectionism laws justified! What was so hard about that? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justify-illegal-immigration-to-me/509697/98 "2009-09-12T19:57:14Z")
As long as being here means you eat and being in Mexico means you won’t (hyperbole, but you see the underlying point yea?) no matter what you do you’re going to have people sneaking in. Canada is doing pretty good, and how much immigration trouble do you have between the two countries? People who aren’t desperate don’t move to foreign countries for no good reason. I think the really relevant question here is what’s wrong with Mexico’s economy? Is it government, economic, corruption, lack of resources or something else? What could be done to fix it? Is there anyway we could help? Get them up to decent standard of living and suddenly we don’t have the immigration troubles we did. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justify-illegal-immigration-to-me/509697/99 "2009-09-12T20:07:36Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > Immigration laws do not just protect the powerfula agianst the weak, they also protect the weak against the strong. Yes, because the strong are gonna come marching in through customs in an orderly fashion! :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justify-illegal-immigration-to-me/509697/100 "2009-09-12T20:21:32Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > As long as being here means you eat and being in Mexico means you won’t (hyperbole, but you see the underlying point yea?) no matter what you do you’re going to have people sneaking in. Canada is doing pretty good, and how much immigration trouble do you have between the two countries? People who aren’t desperate don’t move to foreign countries for no good reason. > > I think the really relevant question here is what’s wrong with Mexico’s economy? Is it government, economic, corruption, lack of resources or something else? What could be done to fix it? Is there anyway we could help? > > Get them up to decent standard of living and suddenly we don’t have the immigration troubles we did. I’ve made this very point numerous times. I do wish they would get their act together. It may be changing, but Mexico is highly corrupt, and its corrupt throughout the government. There have been some positive signs lately as the government seems to be cracking down on the drug bigwigs. It’s ironic that the U.S. corporations go all over the world in search of cheap labor, and we have a huge source of it right beyond our southern border. My guess is that it may take the Chinese to come in and set up companies and run them, as they are doing in much of Africa. It’s really sad. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justify-illegal-immigration-to-me/509697.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justify-illegal-immigration-to-me/509697.md?page=6)