# Justify illegal immigration to me **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 11, 2009, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justify-illegal-immigration-to-me/509697 "2009-09-11T15:44:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justify-illegal-immigration-to-me/509697/101 "2009-09-12T21:16:52Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > A free country should be able to pass any law that gives its own citizens a decent chance of obtaining any honest job she/he wants for a living. The ability of a country to pass any laws it likes doesn’t preclude some of them from being either ridiculous or immoral. Laws, for instance, sending people to jail for smoking pot I would consider ridiculous (given how well Prohibition worked) but not immoral, since they apply without discrimination to everyone. Saudi Arabian laws forbidding women to drive or go out without a male are ridiculous AND immoral. Laws discriminating against people on the grounds of birthplace are not ridiculous, but they are immoral. They are discriminatory. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justify-illegal-immigration-to-me/509697/102 "2009-09-12T21:40:50Z")
> [@Gozu](#): > > But my assertion is good and some of yours are obviously wrong! > > It’s not my fault you can’t make good assertions. Don’t lump diamonds with dirt and call both garbage. It’s just unfair. Assertions are garbage, in terms of debate. If you have a good assertion, that should be made clear through arguments and evidence. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justify-illegal-immigration-to-me/509697/103 "2009-09-12T22:50:22Z")
> [@pedescribe](#): > > Assertions are garbage, in terms of debate. If you have a good assertion, that should be made clear through arguments and evidence. In **every** case? Do you have evidence that you love your wife, child, parent or anything else? You can assert it until the grass turns blue, but can you _prove_ it? ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2009, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justify-illegal-immigration-to-me/509697/104 "2009-09-13T00:45:22Z")
> [@Dioptre](#): > > The existance of legal immigration channels, and the reasonableness of legal restrictions is not an argument against appropriate treatment of people who don’t come under that system. > > I was clearly talking about undocumented immigration, so asking me to demonstrate that documented “legal migrants” aren’t treated fairly is a furfy. Not so clearly [QUOTE=Dioptre] Yes, an argument can be made for border/immigration control. It has to start with reasonable objectives, and finish with humane treatment of individuals. Unless you are an island state or lock down the border, people will cross it with economic motives. No one in this threat has given any reason but self-entitlement for denying them humane treatment, including protection of labor law. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![tacoloco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tacoloco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tacoloco)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2009, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justify-illegal-immigration-to-me/509697/105 "2009-09-13T02:05:14Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > No, many of them pay income tax with taxid numbers or fake social security numbers. The number of them who work “under the table” is probably no larger than the number of American teenagers, contractors, and handymen who do so. Citation needed. That “probably” crap isn’t going to stick. The bottom line is that people who come here without following the procedure for immigrating are here illegally. They have violated U.S. law, law we have every right to enforce. People who come here illegally DO NOT deserve the rights and protections afforded to citizens and people who immigrate legally. ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2009, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justify-illegal-immigration-to-me/509697/106 "2009-09-13T02:10:48Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > So then you were wrong when you said I was wrong that there were restrictions on foreigners owning coastal property and working in Mexico. You didn’t say there were restrictions on foreigners owning land in this zone. You said that foreigners cannot own land there. And I didn’t say there were not restrictions on working. I said there are no quotas limiting the amount of people allowed to work here. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2009, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justify-illegal-immigration-to-me/509697/107 "2009-09-13T02:43:02Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > No asshole, . . . This is a rather blatant violation of the rules. This is a Warning that you are to refrain from this behavior in Great Debates. [/ Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2009, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justify-illegal-immigration-to-me/509697/108 "2009-09-13T02:43:07Z")
> [@Aspidistra](#): > > Laws discriminating against people on the grounds of birthplace are not ridiculous, but they are immoral. They are discriminatory. Discriminatory? I certainly hope so-otherwise, why bother becoming a citizen at all? ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2009, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justify-illegal-immigration-to-me/509697/109 "2009-09-13T03:11:51Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > In **every** case? Do you have evidence that you love your wife, child, parent or anything else? You can assert it until the grass turns blue, but can you _prove_ it? Yes, in every **debate**. Are you going to debate with me over whether or not I love my parents? If not, then it’s not an issue. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2009, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justify-illegal-immigration-to-me/509697/110 "2009-09-13T03:17:43Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#): > > You didn’t say there were restrictions on foreigners owning land in this zone. You said that foreigners cannot own land there. And I didn’t say there were not restrictions on working. I said there are no quotas limiting the amount of people allowed to work here. I apologize for my snark, especially since I was wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2009, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justify-illegal-immigration-to-me/509697/111 "2009-09-13T04:54:17Z")
> [@tacoloco](#): > > Citation needed. That “probably” crap isn’t going to stick. You didn’t think that one through very well, did you? ---
**Author:** ![tacoloco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tacoloco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tacoloco)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2009, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justify-illegal-immigration-to-me/509697/112 "2009-09-13T19:38:45Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > You didn’t think that one through very well, did you? Please. Don’t make half assed assertions and then not back them up. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2009, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justify-illegal-immigration-to-me/509697/113 "2009-09-13T20:14:07Z")
> [@tacoloco](#): > > Please. > > Don’t make half assed assertions and then not back them up. :rolleyes: If you think I’m wrong, then you back your assertion up. I said “probably.” How the hell are you going to cite something like that? All I know is that almost every teenager I ever knew with a job, including myself at one point, worked “under the table.” And I’ve known countless handymen and contractors that work “under the table.” Virtually everyone who works for tips, including waiters, waitresses, and pizza deliverers, takes at least some of their money “under the table.” Some take all of it that way. The first 2 years I delivered pizza it was unwritten company policy to not report our tips, until the IRS tut-tutted us in the 3rd year and we had to start reporting _some_ of them. And I’ve known several small business owners, including restauranteurs, who do at least some of their business “under the table.” I honestly doubt the number of immigrants not paying taxes even comes close to the number of Joe the Plumbers out there dodging Uncle Sam, but again, it’s pretty much by its very nature uncitable. But it’s disingenuous to act all huffy about it like _only_ immigrants do it. It’s as American as apple pie. ---
**Author:** ![IdahoMauleMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/71c47a/32.png) [@IdahoMauleMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IdahoMauleMan)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2009, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justify-illegal-immigration-to-me/509697/114 "2009-09-13T20:15:18Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > \ > > 1 They’re making a better life for themselves > > 2 They do the jobs no one else will do > > 3 They’re not hurting anyone > > 4 Anti-illegal immigration = racism > > 5 Your ancestors were illegal immigrant > > 6 Coming here legally is onerous I’m all in favor of open immigration. To answer your points above 1. They are free to do whatever they think is best 2. Couldn’t care less…that is a voluntary agreement between them, and whomever chooses to employ them. It’s none of my concern. I’ve seen other posts about illegals taking ‘our jobs’. I didn’t realize that an employer’s decision about whom to hire, or not hire, was anybody’s business but their own. Note to poster: It’s not ‘your job’. It’s only ‘your job’ if you decide to become an employer. Than you are free to employ whomever you prefer. 1. As long as they don’t pose a threat to my life, my family’s life or my property, than I agree 2. Couldn’t care less about this point 3. Couldn’t care less about this point 4. I agree [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justify-illegal-immigration-to-me/509697.md?page=5)