# Justifying evil, logically. **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 10, 2009, 9:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justifying-evil-logically/509532 "2009-09-10T09:03:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![MostlyClueless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@MostlyClueless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MostlyClueless)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 9:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justifying-evil-logically/509532/1 "2009-09-10T09:03:35Z")
I’m looking for quotes from fiction (or perhaps real life) that show how evil actions might seem like a logical choice. Since it’s a bit hard to explain, I’d like to give two examples: [QUOTE=Jack, Fight Club] I’m a recall coordinator. My job is to apply the formula. Take the number of vehicles in the field, (A), and multiply it by the probable rate of failure, (B), then multiply the result by the average out-of-court settlement, (C). A times B times C equals X… If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don’t do one. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Douglas Adams, The Restaurant at the End of the Universe] The history of warfare is similarly subdivided though here the phases are retribution, anticipation, and diplomacy. Thus, retribution: “I’m going to kill you because you killed my brother.” Anticipation: “I’m going to kill you because I killed your brother.” And diplomacy: “I’m going to kill my brother and then kill you on the pretext that your brother did it.“ [/QUOTE] Anyone? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 9:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justifying-evil-logically/509532/2 "2009-09-10T09:26:19Z")
To the untrained eye triage may seem like a heartless and ‘evil’ practice, but abandoning dying men to prioritise others is certainly logical. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justifying-evil-logically/509532/3 "2009-09-10T13:32:59Z")
“Evil will always defeate Good, because Good is Dumb!” – Dark Helmet (Rick Moranis) in **Spaceballs**. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justifying-evil-logically/509532/4 "2009-09-10T13:36:36Z")
Don’t have the book in front of me, so hopefully someone can chime in with whatever Ozymandius says to justify his actions at the end of The Watchmen. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justifying-evil-logically/509532/5 "2009-09-10T14:31:26Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > Don’t have the book in front of me, so hopefully someone can chime in with whatever Ozymandius says to justify his actions at the end of The Watchmen. Whatever it was, they helpfully pare it down for the movie. IIRC: “You killed millions.” “To save billions!” ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justifying-evil-logically/509532/6 "2009-09-10T14:38:59Z")
Can’t quite tell if the OP is looking for rationalizations of evil actions, generally, or only for examples in which the evil is a simple, cold, inhuman equation. Got nothing on the latter. As for the former, here’s Saruman’s justification to Gandalf in _The Fellowship of the Ring_: > [@](#): > > … The time of the Elves is over, but our time is at hand: the world of Men, which we must rule. But we must have power, **power to order things as we will, for that good which only the Wise can see.** > > … This then is one choice before you, before us. We may join with that Power. It would be wise, Gandalf. There is hope that way. Its victory is at hand; and there will be rich reward for those that aided it. As the Power grows, its proved friends will also grow; and **the Wise, such as you and I, may with patience come at last to direct its courses, to control it. We can bide our time, we can keep our thoughts in our hearts, deploring maybe evils done by the way, but approving the high and ultimate purpose: Knowledge, Rule, Order; all the things that we have so far striven in vain to accomplish,** hindered rather than helped by our weak or idle friends. There need not be, **there would not be, any real change in our designs, only in our means.** Basically, a Father Knows Best justification. The Wise should rule, and put things in their proper order. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justifying-evil-logically/509532/7 "2009-09-10T14:53:18Z")
_The new law of evolution in corporate America seems to be survival of the unfittest. Well, in my book you either do it right or you get eliminated. In the last seven deals that I’ve been involved with, there were 2.5 million stockholders who have made a pretax profit of 12 billion dollars. Thank you. I am not a destroyer of companies. I am a liberator of them! The point is, ladies and gentleman, that greed, for lack of a better word, is good. Greed is right, greed works. Greed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit. Greed, in all of its forms; greed for life, for money, for love, knowledge has marked the upward surge of mankind. And greed, you mark my words, will not only save Teldar Paper, but that other malfunctioning corporation called the USA. Thank you very much_ - Gordon Gekko, **Wall Street** ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justifying-evil-logically/509532/8 "2009-09-10T15:40:38Z")
Consider the story of [the Swamp Angel](http://www.americanheritage.com/articles/magazine/ah/1977/5/1977_5_97_print.shtml). This article is NOT the best thing Bruce Catton wrote about the Swamp Angel for your purposes – his text in Never Call Retreat was more on-point. But I can’t find it online and would have to go home and look it up. I will try to remember to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Icerigger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icerigger/32/432_2.png) [@Icerigger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icerigger)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justifying-evil-logically/509532/9 "2009-09-10T16:14:59Z")
> [@God](#): > > 1: Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind: > > 2: "Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge? > > 3: Gird up your loins like a man, I will question you, and you shall declare to me. > > 4: "Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding. > > 5: Who determined its measurements – surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it? > > 6: On what were its bases sunk, or who laid its cornerstone, > > 7: when the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? Book of Job ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justifying-evil-logically/509532/10 "2009-09-10T18:07:47Z")
James Bond: You’ll kill fifty thousand people uselessly. Auric Goldfinger: American motorists kill that many every two years. ---
**Author:** ![Jerseyman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bbce88/32.png) [@Jerseyman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jerseyman)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justifying-evil-logically/509532/11 "2009-09-10T18:11:44Z")
‘The Greater Good’ ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justifying-evil-logically/509532/12 "2009-09-10T18:43:15Z")
“We had to destroy the village to save it.” “The ends justify the means.” ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justifying-evil-logically/509532/13 "2009-09-10T19:24:39Z")
From _The 5th Element_: Zorg: Life, which you so nobly serve, comes from destruction, disorder and chaos. Now take this empty glass. Here it is: peaceful, serene, boring. But if it is destroyed [Pushes the glass off the table. It shatter on the floor, and several small machines come out to clean it up] Zorg: Look at all these little things! So busy now! Notice how each one is useful. A lovely ballet ensues, so full of form and color. Now, think about all those people that created them. Technicians, engineers, hundreds of people, who will be able to feed their children tonight, so those children can grow up big and strong and have little teeny children of their own, and so on and so forth. Thus, adding to the great chain of life. You see, father, by causing a little destruction, I am in fact encouraging life. In reality, you and I are in the same business. ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justifying-evil-logically/509532/14 "2009-09-10T19:28:40Z")
[The Sword of Good](http://yudkowsky.net/other/fiction/the-sword-of-good): an exploration of right and wrong in high fantasy, by a philosophy prof. ---
**Author:** ![Second\_Star\_to\_the\_Right](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3bc359/32.png) [@Second\_Star\_to\_the\_Right](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Second_Star_to_the_Right)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justifying-evil-logically/509532/15 "2009-09-10T20:50:02Z")
First quote that came to mind was from South Park: Bigger, Longer and Uncut > [@Satan](#): > > Without evil there could be no good, so it must be good to be evil sometimes. ---
**Author:** ![rowrrbazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rowrrbazzle/32/414_2.png) [@rowrrbazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rowrrbazzle)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justifying-evil-logically/509532/16 "2009-09-10T22:18:43Z")
“…we are not virtuous by not wanting power. We are really cowards for not wanting power because power is good and powerlessness is evil.” [link](http://www.onthemedia.org/transcripts/2009/08/07/01). ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justifying-evil-logically/509532/17 "2009-09-11T00:39:03Z")
There’s a rather obscure 1980s animated film called _Rock and Rule_ that is memorable primarily for the villain, Mok, an evil rock star who’s planning to unleash a powerful demon on the world. At one point he offers his justification to a dim-witted henchman, explaining that “We all must have our own personal view of right and wrong” and “Remember, ‘evil’ spelled backward is ‘live’, and we all want to do that!” This is, like a lot of pop culture justifications for evil, basically a paraphrase of Nietzsche. It happens often enough that I’m not sure writers even realize that they’re ripping off _Beyond Good and Evil_, _On the Genealogy of Morals_, etc., they may just be getting the idea from each other. **Miller** ’s quote from _The Fifth Element_ strikes me as rather Nietzschean, and this kind of thing even pops up in children’s books. In the first _Harry Potter_ book, where Lord Voldemort’s henchman says “Lord Voldemort showed me the truth. There is no good and evil, there is only power, and those too weak to seek it.” So if you’re looking for a philosophical justification for fictional villainy, Nietzsche looks to be the hands-down favorite. This isn’t really fair to Nietzsche because it requires rather badly misinterpreting him, but it’s not as if there’s no real-world precedent for _that_. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justifying-evil-logically/509532/18 "2009-09-11T00:48:29Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Whatever it was, they helpfully pare it down for the movie. IIRC: > > “You killed millions.” > “To save billions!” Likewise, Kodos the Executioner (Star Trek, TOS, “[The Conscience of the King](http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/The_Conscience_of_the_King_%28episode%29)”), who was forced to make the terrible choice of killing some colonists so that others could live, or doing nothing, letting everyone starve: “The revolution… is successful. But survival depends upon drastic measures. Your continued existence is a threat to the order we have restored; your lives mean slow death to the more valued members of the colony. I, therefore, have no alternative but to sentence you to death. Your execution is so ordered, signed Kodos, governor of Tarsus IV.” ---
**Author:** ![Jerseyman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bbce88/32.png) [@Jerseyman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jerseyman)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justifying-evil-logically/509532/19 "2009-09-11T00:58:01Z")
> [@rowrrbazzle](#): > > “…we are not virtuous by not wanting power. We are really cowards for not wanting power because power is good and powerlessness is evil.” [link](http://www.onthemedia.org/transcripts/2009/08/07/01). No. The power-obsessed _assume_ revulsion of power to be weakness because that is how it would be for them. They cannot imagine a different set of values because they cannot at heart unconsciously trust themselves any more than extreme feminists can imagine women as other than either conforming to extreme conservative values demanded of men or inferior to them, and least of all having any equal authority and effect to assert their different ideals and change men to suit. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justifying-evil-logically/509532/20 "2009-09-11T02:01:53Z")
Heinrich Dorfmann does a fantasitc job of it in _The Flight of the Phoenix_ Or Willi in _Lifeboat_ There is something evil about cold logic, and whats scary is it’s often right. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justifying-evil-logically/509532.md?page=2)