# Justifying evil, logically. **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 10, 2009, 9:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justifying-evil-logically/509532 "2009-09-10T09:03:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justifying-evil-logically/509532/21 "2009-09-11T02:29:14Z")
There’s an argument I’ve run across that Faith is good, the ultimate good, the only real good; despair leads people to faith; therefore doing anything to reduce the amount of despair in the world is evil. I read that several time back in the ( IIRC ) 1980s in books on the subject of life extension; there was always some priest who’d be quoted something like that as a reason why extending the human lifespan is wrong. A similar argument goes that “It is better to kill for Kali than it is to help people as an atheist, because at least the Kali cultist is acting out of faith and upholding it”; the latter is a paraphrase from memory of a bishop quoted in an article in a newspaper that I read as a teen. [QUOTE=A Few Good Men] “Son, we live in a world that has walls and those walls need to be guarded by men with guns. Who’s gonna do it? You? You, Lieutenant Weinberg? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago and curse the Marines; you have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that Santiago’s death, while tragic, probably saved lives and that my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. You don’t want the truth because deep down in places you don’t talk about at parties you want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use then as the backbone of a life trying to defend something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said “thank you,” and went on your way.” [/QUOTE] A classic "It’s necessary for National Security and Preserving Our Freedoms style defense of evil. What makes it and similar claims an excuse is that they always contain the hidden assumption that the “necessary evil” really WAS necessary. And that the critics of the evil are weak, and should be kept ignorant. And it therefore can be used to justify anything at all, since there’s no attempt to actually prove necessity - it’s just asserted - and because critics are kept in the dark and ignored if they find out anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justifying-evil-logically/509532/22 "2009-09-11T02:37:06Z")
“Without evil there can be no good, so it must be good to be evil sometimes.” ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justifying-evil-logically/509532/23 "2009-09-11T03:28:42Z")
from Bones: > [@](#): > > Brennan: All of your assumptions are built upon a first principle, Zack. To wit, the historical human experience as a whole is more important than a single person’s life. > Zack: Yes. > Brennan: Yet you risked it all so you wouldn’t hurt Hodgins ---
**Author:** ![Second\_Star\_to\_the\_Right](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3bc359/32.png) [@Second\_Star\_to\_the\_Right](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Second_Star_to_the_Right)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justifying-evil-logically/509532/24 "2009-09-11T04:24:11Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > “Without evil there can be no good, so it must be good to be evil sometimes.” [chandler]Shall I use my invisibility to fight crime, or for evil?[/chandler] ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justifying-evil-logically/509532/25 "2009-09-11T05:06:20Z")
Herbert West in the movie BRIDE OF RE-ANIMATOR when his partner Dan’s girlfriend accused him of blasphemy (not exact recollection)… “Blasphemy? Against what? God? A God so repulsed by His Creation that He subjected them to death and decay? The only blasphemy is to wallow in mediocrity. I have taken the miserable refuse of your God’s failures and I have created something which the hand of man or the womb of woman could not conceive (_points to “Bride”_)… THIS! This is my creation!” ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justifying-evil-logically/509532/26 "2009-09-11T05:12:57Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > Herbert West in the movie BRIDE OF RE-ANIMATOR when his partner Dan’s girlfriend accused him of blasphemy (not exact recollection)… > > “Blasphemy? Against what? God? A God so repulsed by His Creation that He subjected them to death and decay? The only blasphemy is to wallow in mediocrity. I have taken the miserable refuse of your God’s failures and I have created something which the hand of man or the womb of woman could not conceive (_points to “Bride”_)… THIS! This is my creation!” IMDB says I conflated two seperate quotes: Dr. Herbert West: Blasphemy? Before what? God? A God repulsed by the miserable humanity He created in His own image? I will not be shackled by the failures of your God. The only blasphemy is to wallow in insignificance. I have taken refuse of your God’s failures and I have triumphed. There! THERE is my creation! Dr. Herbert West: I created what no man’s mind nor woman’s womb could ever hope to achieve. Considering it’s been a few years since I’ve seen it, I think I actually did pretty well. ---
**Author:** ![Cardinal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardinal/32/4000_2.png) [@Cardinal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardinal)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justifying-evil-logically/509532/27 "2009-09-12T02:40:33Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > “The ends justify the means.” I hate that meme. Of course the ends justify the means, if you accurately assess the ends. Should you run over the dog to save your family? Of course. Should you kill baby Hitler to prevent the Nazi Party? Of course. Those who use that phrase in a moralistic tone (and many of them are my otherwise allies) haven’t thought it through. ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justifying-evil-logically/509532/28 "2009-09-12T03:13:46Z")
Tell that to Kant. ---
**Author:** ![tonyfop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/85f322/32.png) [@tonyfop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tonyfop)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justifying-evil-logically/509532/29 "2009-09-12T03:17:03Z")
Okay, time to stir the pot. Not exactly a quote, but the OP asked for fiction and real life evil… The United States nuked Hiroshima and Nagasaki and killed hundreds of thousands to spare the millions it would have cost to invade Japan, on both sides. Do I agree? yes. Could I have made the decision? No ---
**Author:** ![Reply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/reply/32/15952_2.png) [@Reply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reply)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 9:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justifying-evil-logically/509532/30 "2009-09-12T09:44:30Z")
Hey, on the other side, the Nazis considered the purification of the human race a necessary evil for a greater good. And for a direct quote, how about [Osama bin Laden’s letter to the USA](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/nov/24/theobserver)? It’s a really interesting read. The following is an excerpt immediately following a detailed list of American wrongs; in this section, bin Laden explains why attacks on American civilians are acceptable: > [@](#): > > (2) These tragedies and calamities are only a few examples of your oppression and aggression against us. It is commanded by our religion and intellect that the oppressed have a right to return the aggression. Do not await anything from us but Jihad, resistance and revenge. Is it in any way rational to expect that after America has attacked us for more than half a century, that we will then leave her to live in security and peace?!! > > (3) You may then dispute that all the above does not justify aggression against civilians, for crimes they did not commit and offenses in which they did not partake: > > (a) This argument contradicts your continuous repetition that America is the land of freedom, and its leaders in this world. Therefore, the American people are the ones who choose their government by way of their own free will; a choice which stems from their agreement to its policies. Thus the American people have chosen, consented to, and affirmed their support for the Israeli oppression of the Palestinians, the occupation and usurpation of their land, and its continuous killing, torture, punishment and expulsion of the Palestinians. The American people have the ability and choice to refuse the policies of their Government and even to change it if they want. > > (b) The American people are the ones who pay the taxes which fund the planes that bomb us in Afghanistan, the tanks that strike and destroy our homes in Palestine, the armies which occupy our lands in the Arabian Gulf, and the fleets which ensure the blockade of Iraq. These tax dollars are given to Israel for it to continue to attack us and penetrate our lands. So the American people are the ones who fund the attacks against us, and they are the ones who oversee the expenditure of these monies in the way they wish, through their elected candidates. > > (c) Also the American army is part of the American people. It is this very same people who are shamelessly helping the Jews fight against us. > > (d) The American people are the ones who employ both their men and their women in the American Forces which attack us. > > (e) This is why the American people cannot be not innocent of all the crimes committed by the Americans and Jews against us. ---
**Author:** ![Reply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/reply/32/15952_2.png) [@Reply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reply)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 10:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justifying-evil-logically/509532/31 "2009-09-12T10:05:23Z")
And from Star Wars fiction, Kreia in Knights of the Old Republic 2 defends the Dark Side (or, perhaps, defends neutrality) against excessive good when the protagonist attempts to Save the Galaxy Yet Again ™. Throughout the game, she has a far more interesting perspective on the Force and its practitioners than the ultrasimplistic Good vs Evil seen in the movies. “And what is it you think you have accomplished? If you seek to aid everyone that suffers in the galaxy, you will only weaken yourself … and weaken them. It is the internal struggles, when fought and won on their own, that yield the strongest rewards. You stole that struggle from them, cheapened it. If you care for others, then dispense with pity and sacrifice and recognize the value in letting them fight their own battles. And when they triumph, they will be even stronger for the victory.” ---
**Author:** ![Reply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/reply/32/15952_2.png) [@Reply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reply)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justifying-evil-logically/509532/32 "2009-09-12T10:30:43Z")
Some more from random works of fiction… Gabriel from Swordfish (the movie): > [@](#): > > Stanley: How can you justify all this? > Gabriel: You’re not looking at the big picture Stan. Here’s a scenario. You have the power to cure all the world’s diseases but the price for this is that you must kill a single innocent child, could you kill that child Stanley? > Stanley: No. > Gabriel: You disappoint me, it’s the greatest good. > Stanley: Well how about 10 innocents? > Gabriel: Now you’re gettin’ it, how about a hundred - how about a THOUSAND? Not to save the world but to preserve our way of life. > Stanley: No man has the right to make that decision; you’re no different from any other terrorist. > Gabriel: No, you’re wrong Stanley. Some men are put here to shape destiny, to protect freedom, despite the atrocities they must commit. Thousands die every day for no reason at all, where’s your bleeding heart for them? You give your twenty dollars to Greenpeace every year thinking you’re changing the world? What countries will harbor terrorists when they realize the consequences of what I’ll do? Did you know that I can buy nuclear warheads in Minsk for forty million each? Hell, I’d buy half a dozen and even get a discount! Jigsaw (from Saw)'s recurring justification is teaching people how to value their lives by putting them through hell: > [@](#): > > Congratulations. You are still alive. Most people are so ungrateful to be alive. But not you. Not anymore. Trek’s Borg occasionally (and unsuccessfully) try to justify their assimilation before resorting to Resistance is Futile-brand nanoprobes: > [@](#): > > Why do you resist? We only wish to raise quality of life for all species. -Locutus There’s apparently an entire website in defense of Magneto (from X-Men)'s philosophies about mutant superiority: [Magneto Was Right](http://www.magnetowasright.com/pages/analysis/magneto-was-right.php) ---
**Author:** ![Khadaji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Khadaji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khadaji)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justifying-evil-logically/509532/33 "2009-09-12T10:52:41Z")
> [@Reply](#): > > \ > There’s apparently an entire website in defense of Magneto (from X-Men)'s philosophies about mutant superiority: [Magneto Was Right](http://www.magnetowasright.com/pages/analysis/magneto-was-right.php) I have not read the source material, but always felt that the movies did not present him in a bad light. I often had sympathy for his cause. ---
**Author:** ![Neidhart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Neidhart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neidhart)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justifying-evil-logically/509532/34 "2009-09-12T11:26:57Z")
From **The Turner Diaries:** > [@](#): > > It is a heavy burden of responsibility for us to bear, since most of the victims of our bomb were only pawns who were no more committed to the sick philosophy or the racially destructive goals of the System than we are. > > But there is no way we can destroy the System without hurting many thousands of innocent people - no way. It is a cancer too deeply rooted in our flesh. And if we don’t destroy the System before it destroys us - if we don’t cut this cancer out of our living flesh - our whole race will die. > > . . . > > No excuse for our failure will have any meaning, for there will be only a swarming horde of indifferent, mulatto zombies to hear it. There will be no White men to remember us - either to blame us for our weakness or to forgive us for our folly. ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justifying-evil-logically/509532/35 "2009-09-12T11:30:13Z")
> [@Cardinal](#): > > I hate that meme. > > Of course the ends justify the means, if you accurately assess the ends. Should you run over the dog to save your family? Of course. Should you kill baby Hitler to prevent the Nazi Party? Of course. > > Those who use that phrase in a moralistic tone (and many of them are my otherwise allies) haven’t thought it through. Indeed. Most people who object to it seem to consider “kill a hundred people to save a thousand” to be morally equivilant to “kill a hundred people to get a sandwich,” and the latter just as easily reached. Anyways, my own quote (though I was beaten to the punch with the good doctor West. Blast!): Turgidson advocates a further nuclear attack to prevent a Soviet response to Ripper’s attack] General “Buck” Turgidson: Mr. President, we are rapidly approaching a moment of truth both for ourselves as human beings and for the life of our nation. Now, truth is not always a pleasant thing. But it is necessary now to make a choice, to choose between two admittedly regrettable, but nevertheless _distinguishable_, postwar environments: one where you got twenty million people killed, and the other where you got a hundred and fifty million people killed! —Dr. Strangelove ---
**Author:** ![Small\_Hen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ad7895/32.png) [@Small\_Hen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Small_Hen)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justifying-evil-logically/509532/36 "2009-09-12T16:05:39Z")
> [@](#): > > Justifying evil, logically. I don’t have a quote ready, but I’m pretty sure Mirror Spock fits this thread somehow. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2009, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justifying-evil-logically/509532/37 "2009-09-12T16:18:54Z")
“Join me, and I will complete your training. With our combined strength, we can end this destructive conflict and bring order to the galaxy.” -Darth Vader, Empire Strikes Back The “take your son to work” justification. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2009, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justifying-evil-logically/509532/38 "2009-09-21T14:21:09Z")
edit: responding to a quote that was later corrected. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2009, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justifying-evil-logically/509532/39 "2009-09-21T14:27:58Z")
> [@](#): > > “Join me, and I will complete your training. With our combined strength, we can end this destructive conflict and bring order to the galaxy.” > > -Darth Vader, Empire Strikes Back > > The “take your son to work” justification. **Vader and Son** –Galaxies Ruled, Light Sabers Built. No Job Too Small. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2009, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justifying-evil-logically/509532/40 "2009-09-21T15:02:34Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > edit: responding to a quote that was later corrected. I came back to repost the corrected quote & wondered where your response was! LOL! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justifying-evil-logically/509532.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/justifying-evil-logically/509532.md?page=3)