# Juvenile delinquent taught at a university **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 7, 2014, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/juvenile-delinquent-taught-at-a-university/678154 "2014-01-07T18:58:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2014, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/juvenile-delinquent-taught-at-a-university/678154/101 "2014-01-11T21:18:42Z")
> [@Don\_Simus](#): > > I see. You are a profet. Like Brigham Young. I don’t know if this is you attempting to make a joke but it’s spelled prophet. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_Simus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@Don\_Simus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_Simus)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2014, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/juvenile-delinquent-taught-at-a-university/678154/102 "2014-01-12T02:11:22Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Because I could stand before a crowd of students who don’t speak Chinese and pretend I was teaching them Chinese by making up a bunch of words. The students don’t know Chinese so they wouldn’t know I’m faking. Abagnale was a high school dropout, but not an idiot. He new what one can fake. If you try to do the same thing with Chinese you will fail miserably. Can you yourself figure out why? You have some college degree, don’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2014, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/juvenile-delinquent-taught-at-a-university/678154/103 "2014-01-12T02:20:38Z")
The funny thing is you’re apparently trying to make a point about how academics are easily suckered. You’re providing examples of people who accepted things they were told and didn’t check the underlying assumptions. And you keep using Frank Abagnale as an example to try to support your point - despite the fact that many of us have pointed out how questionable Abagnale is as a source. You’re exhibiting exactly the kind of behavior you’re apparently trying to protest against. It’s the rest of us who are thinking critically and questioning the evidence to see if it matches up to the claims. You’re the kind of person who fell for Frank Abagnale’s lies and we’re the kind of people who exposed him as a fraud. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_Simus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@Don\_Simus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_Simus)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2014, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/juvenile-delinquent-taught-at-a-university/678154/104 "2014-01-12T02:41:51Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > Heck, many intro level students would probably _prefer_ an instructor who only expected them to know what was in the textbook and did not challenge their thinking or give them much work to do. Students who actually cared about Sociology might find this disappointing, but I’ve never heard a student complain about getting an easy A. During spring break many students take introductory Scuba diving course leading to the Open Water Diver PADI rating. Do you think that those student would prefer an easy instructor who skips difficult questions and gives them a passing score even when they fail? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2014, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/juvenile-delinquent-taught-at-a-university/678154/105 "2014-01-12T03:02:58Z")
> [@Don\_Simus](#): > > No, this is how it does not work. The scheme I described would obviously not work for automotive repair. Similarly it can’t work in science. When producers are also consumers of the same product economy does not function. It is doing strange things. … are you now taking the position that _science_ doesn’t work? Also, how did economics get in there? Scientific research does not function under an economic model. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2014, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/juvenile-delinquent-taught-at-a-university/678154/106 "2014-01-12T03:04:48Z")
> [@Don\_Simus](#): > > During spring break many students take introductory Scuba diving course leading to the Open Water Diver PADI rating. Do you think that those student would prefer an easy instructor who skips difficult questions and gives them a passing score even when they fail? I think you would have a difficult time finding an undergraduate student who would prefer a challenging class where they learned a lot but made an F to an easy class where they didn’t learn much but passed. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2014, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/juvenile-delinquent-taught-at-a-university/678154/107 "2014-01-12T03:08:29Z")
Also, people on vacation take scuba lessons because they want to learn how to scuba dive. The vast majority of students in an intro level class are there because they’re required to be to meet graduation requirement. The students in the first class are invested in the quality of knowledge they receive from the course. The students in the second class (excluding the minority who are going to go on to be sociology majors) are not invested in the class, and are only doing it as part of a checklist to get a degree in the subject in which they _are_ interested. ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2014, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/juvenile-delinquent-taught-at-a-university/678154/108 "2014-01-12T07:06:56Z")
> [@Don\_Simus](#): > > This means that the article was reviewed. The fact that the editors did it themselves instead of sending article to an external reviewer is not essential. > > Besides why do you believe that peer review can solve any problem? It can only create them. Imagine that automotive mechanics are reviewed not by customers but by peers, that is by other mechanics. What a nightmare would it be. But this is what happens in sociology. Since one sociologist reviews a paper of another sociologist. > [@Don\_Simus](#): > > But the automotive mechanics, used in my example, are obviously not cranks. So this is not the problem. I’ll give you a hint. What is the economic relationship between two automotive shops? Is this supposed to point out that there may be competition between researchers when it comes to publishing? That’s not shocking news. I’m still not sure what the “Gotcha” catch is that the OP seems to be going for. > [@](#): > > However, he never flew an airplane and never taught anyone to fly. And this is understandable since the consequences would be immediately obvious. However, when Abagnale impersonated a professor it was not about a fake university ID. He actually read five lectures a week for three month and each time made a safe landing. How could this possibly happen? Could it be because the other sociology professors also do not teach their students anything real? So sociology is not “real” because a person, without a PhD–but who was a quick study and successful impersonator in many fields, taught some intro classes? As others have mentioned, wouldn’t the correct analogy with impersonating a pilot be conducting and publishing original research in sociology? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2014, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/juvenile-delinquent-taught-at-a-university/678154/109 "2014-01-12T07:47:08Z")
> [@dasmoocher](#): > > So sociology is not “real” because a person, without a PhD–but who was a quick study and successful impersonator in many fields, taught some intro classes? And the evidence says it’s unlikely he actually taught the classes anyway. ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2014, 9:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/juvenile-delinquent-taught-at-a-university/678154/110 "2014-01-12T09:39:30Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > And the evidence says it’s unlikely he actually taught the classes anyway. Maybe _Catch Me If You Can_ should have been peer-reviewed for accuracy. ---
**Author:** ![Ms\_Boods](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5e9695/32.png) [@Ms\_Boods](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms_Boods)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2014, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/juvenile-delinquent-taught-at-a-university/678154/111 "2014-01-12T13:35:32Z")
> [@Don\_Simus](#): > > Lectures and conferences like this one: > > [Doctor Fox Lecture](http://www.significancemagazine.org/details/webexclusive/1237447/PhDs-couldnt-tell-an-actor-from-a-renowned-scientist.html) > > ? > > Peer reviewed research like that described in this article > > [Opium for Scholars](http://ecclesiastes911.net/opium_for_scholars.html) > > ? Sussed! And I’d’ve got away with it, too, if it weren’t for those meddling kids! ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2014, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/juvenile-delinquent-taught-at-a-university/678154/112 "2014-01-12T14:24:54Z")
> [@Don\_Simus](#): > > In the school were I studied TAs were grading homework or had classes were they helped students with homework and such thing. Not a single TA read lectures (this is what I call teaching a course). I took Philosophy 101 taught by a grad student; she was unremarkable, because the _course_ was unremarkable: it was, well, intro-level stuff. So of course a slim book by Descartes was on the syllabus; it’s there _every_ year; and of course college freshmen who mundanely did the reading were then minimally competent to discuss the basics of _I Think Therefore I Am_ with each other in class, leaving her with little to do. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_Simus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@Don\_Simus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_Simus)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2014, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/juvenile-delinquent-taught-at-a-university/678154/113 "2014-01-12T20:42:23Z")
> [@dasmoocher](#): > > Is this supposed to point out that there may be competition between researchers when it comes to publishing? > > That’s not shocking news. There is also a competition between automotive shops in their normal mode of operation. What is the peculiarity of competition between automotive shops in that strange mode which I described earlier > [@Don\_Simus](#): > > Imagine that automotive mechanics are reviewed not by customers but by peers, that is by other mechanics. ? > [@dasmoocher](#): > > So sociology is not “real” because a person, without a PhD–but who was a quick study and successful impersonator in many fields, taught some intro classes? Why did not he teach an introductory flying course (that is flying single engine two-sitter Cessna 150)? > [@dasmoocher](#): > > As others have mentioned, wouldn’t the correct analogy with impersonating a pilot be conducting and publishing original research in sociology? No it would not. To fly passenger jets one needs 4 years of study and a B.S. degree. This the same as the minimum requirement (in terms of years of study and degree) to teach college courses. Airline pilots do not do anything original. An analogy with original research would be finding new routes through mountains flying earlier low ceiling airplanes. In aviation such things are in the past. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2014, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/juvenile-delinquent-taught-at-a-university/678154/114 "2014-01-12T21:11:17Z")
Here’s a funny thing. I just checked in the book _Catch Me If You Can_, and Frank Abagnale claims that on at least one occasion he _did_ take control of a jet while the real pilot took a break. The co-pilot remained in the cockpit and apparently did not notice that Abagnale had absolutely no flight training. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_Simus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@Don\_Simus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_Simus)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2014, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/juvenile-delinquent-taught-at-a-university/678154/115 "2014-01-12T22:17:36Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > Here’s a funny thing. I just checked in the book _Catch Me If You Can_, and Frank Abagnale claims that on at least one occasion he _did_ take control of a jet while the real pilot took a break. The co-pilot remained in the cockpit and apparently did not notice that Abagnale had absolutely no flight training. The episode you are referring to was as follows. He wrote that the pilot offered him to take pilot’s seat. Abagnale took it and immediately switched the airplane to autopilot. This is not exactly flying the airplane, right? ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2014, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/juvenile-delinquent-taught-at-a-university/678154/116 "2014-01-13T00:04:40Z")
I don’t know why I am doing this. The culmination of flight school is flying a plane. The culmination of a Phd program is not teaching. They don’t even train candidates to teach. They might throw you to TA or teach an intro course, but you certainly are not being instructed on pedagogy. The culmination of a Phd program is doing original research. ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2014, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/juvenile-delinquent-taught-at-a-university/678154/117 "2014-01-13T00:06:47Z")
> [@Don\_Simus](#): > > There is also a competition between automotive shops in their normal mode of operation. What is the peculiarity of competition between automotive shops in that strange mode which I described earlier > > > [@](#): > > > > Originally Posted by Don Simus View Post > > Imagine that automotive mechanics are reviewed not by customers but by peers, that is by other mechanics. > > ? So, what are you looking for? That mechanics would have reason to bad-mouth their rivals for competitive economic reasons? Or, send business to their non-competitor friends? They could do that on Yelp and I wouldn’t be surprised if some do. > [@](#): > > Why did not he teach an introductory flying course (that is flying single engine two-sitter Cessna 150)? Why would he? I imagine flying on planes as a fake pilot is more fun and got him where he wanted to go. Are you saying Abagnale was incapable of teaching an introductory flying course? I’m pretty sure you can find smart, gifted instructors who can effectively teach basic concepts outside their area of expertise. > [@](#): > > No it would not. To fly passenger jets one needs 4 years of study and a B.S. degree. This the same as the minimum requirement (in terms of years of study and degree) to teach college courses. Airline pilots do not do anything original. An analogy with original research would be finding new routes through mountains flying earlier low ceiling airplanes. In aviation such things are in the past. So Capt. Sully did not do anything original when he landed on the Hudson? I didn’t realize that situation is routine. I’ll also say I wouldn’t want Abagnale at the controls when a bird strike occurs and a water landing is needed. I don’t think your analogy with finding new routes is apt. A airline pilot’s job–as I understand it–is to safely get a plane from point A to B, hopefully on time, in addition to whatever needs to be done in real time to accomplish that (dealing with weather or mechanical issues, for example). A professor needs to conduct research and hopefully discover something new or provide an original analysis. (again, IANAP or SP) Did Abagnale ever get funding or publish original research? What don’t you cut to the chase and tell us why you think sociology is BS. Some people here might even agree with you if you have a more convincing argument than that an imposter (may have) given some lectures. If you want to argue that the peer review process has flaws, I’d even agree with that. I’ve seen pretty of BS. ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2014, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/juvenile-delinquent-taught-at-a-university/678154/118 "2014-01-13T00:10:06Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > The culmination of a Phd program is not teaching. They don’t even train candidates to teach. They might throw you to TA or teach an intro course, but you certainly are not being instructed on pedagogy. The culmination of a Phd program is doing original research. And I’m sure many people here have had brilliant researchers as professors who were shitty teachers. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2014, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/juvenile-delinquent-taught-at-a-university/678154/119 "2014-01-13T01:36:28Z")
> [@Don\_Simus](#): > > The episode you are referring to was as follows. He wrote that the pilot offered him to take pilot’s seat. Abagnale took it and immediately switched the airplane to autopilot. This is not exactly flying the airplane, right? I’d say it’s closer to flying the airplane than serving as a TA for a couple of weeks in the summer is to being a university professor. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_Simus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@Don\_Simus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_Simus)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2014, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/juvenile-delinquent-taught-at-a-university/678154/120 "2014-01-13T01:42:33Z")
> [@dasmoocher](#): > > So, what are you looking for? That mechanics would have reason to bad-mouth their rivals for competitive economic reasons? Or, send business to their non-competitor friends? They could do that on Yelp and I wouldn’t be surprised if some do. And what about peer reviewers? > [@dasmoocher](#): > > Are you saying Abagnale was incapable of teaching an introductory flying course? And you think he could? Try it yourself. > [@dasmoocher](#): > > So Capt. Sully did not do anything original when he landed on the Hudson? I didn’t realize that situation is routine. Nothing original. Pilots did numerous water landings before. You are even always instructed by flight attendants where to find flotation devices. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/juvenile-delinquent-taught-at-a-university/678154.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/juvenile-delinquent-taught-at-a-university/678154.md?page=7)