# Juvenile delinquent taught at a university **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 7, 2014, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/juvenile-delinquent-taught-at-a-university/678154 "2014-01-07T18:58:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2014, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/juvenile-delinquent-taught-at-a-university/678154/161 "2014-01-17T10:17:51Z")
> [@](#): > > AS 121 Private Pilot Operations 5 Hours > > This course develops the aeronautical knowledge required for certification as a Private Pilot with an Airplane Single Engine Land rating. Topics include: regulations, safety, pre-solo operations, cross-country planning, airspace, chart use, communications, weather, performance, weight and balance, aerodynamics, and decision-making. Students must register for the same section of AS 121 and ASC 101. > Corequisites: ASC 101. > [@Don\_Simus](#): > > However, only a licensed pilot can teach AS 121. Otherwise the consequences will include injury or death and(or) aircraft damage or its complete destruction. Really? You need to be a licensed pilot to give a lecture on weather? A meteorologist couldn’t do it? Aerodynamics? A aeronautical engineer couldn’t give a lecture on this? Regulations? Sorry, Mr. Lawyer–you’re obviously unqualified due to your lack of a pilot’s license. ---
**Author:** ![Dorjan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dorjan/32/12440_2.png) [@Dorjan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorjan)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2014, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/juvenile-delinquent-taught-at-a-university/678154/162 "2014-01-17T15:53:43Z")
Sociology is the study of human social behavior. i say that Abagnale undoubtedly qualifies as a subject-matter expert in that field. Teaching a Sociology class is probably the most legit thing he’s ever done. ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2014, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/juvenile-delinquent-taught-at-a-university/678154/163 "2014-01-17T17:43:11Z")
> [@Dorjan](#): > > Sociology is the study of human social behavior. i say that Abagnale undoubtedly qualifies as a subject-matter expert in that field. Teaching a Sociology class is probably the most legit thing he’s ever done. I think that is Don Simus’s point, although it seems that he doesn’t want to come out and say it. According to his OP quote from the [eccesiatestes911](http://ecclesiastes911.net/fake_sociology_professor/) website: > [@](#): > > However, when Abagnale impersonated a professor it was not about a fake university ID. He actually read five lectures a week for three month and each time made a safe landing. How could this possibly happen? Could it be because the other sociology professors also do not teach their students anything real? So, it appears that he believes sociology isn’t a real field of study. You know, because a pilot impersonator gave (maybe, since apparently there is only Abagnale’s word for it) some intro lectures and wasn’t detected. Now, if Abagnale had used sociology to rebuild a plane engine in midair while foiling “The Centre’s” evil machinations, it would all be legit. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_Simus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@Don\_Simus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_Simus)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2014, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/juvenile-delinquent-taught-at-a-university/678154/164 "2014-01-17T20:52:52Z")
> [@Dorjan](#): > > Sociology is the study of human social behavior. i say that Abagnale undoubtedly qualifies as a subject-matter expert in that field. Teaching a Sociology class is probably the most legit thing he’s ever done. The science of sociology theoretically and experimentally studies social processes with the aim of understanding the fundamental laws which govern those processes. Social skills have no more relation to sociology than physical training has to physics. Abagnale was sporting pilots uniform while cashing fake checks. The cashier girl instead of inspecting the check was looking at the young pilot. Is this sociology? Is this what Durkheim was after? ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2014, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/juvenile-delinquent-taught-at-a-university/678154/165 "2014-01-17T23:31:46Z")
> [@AlsoNamedBort](#): > > I know this is a fool’s errand, but I’m going to do it anyway. > > Don, I have one simple question for you: > What is your point? > > Please note, responding with another question about what I think is not a point. Notice that he’s ignoring you. Why is that? The reason is that “Don Simus” isn’t really a person but an AI experiment like [ELIZA](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ELIZA). ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2014, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/juvenile-delinquent-taught-at-a-university/678154/166 "2014-01-17T23:37:14Z")
Or maybe he’s really a [dog](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f8/Internet_dog.jpg). (Amazingly, that cartoon dates from July 2003. It’s more than twenty years old.) ---
**Author:** ![Don\_Simus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@Don\_Simus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_Simus)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2014, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/juvenile-delinquent-taught-at-a-university/678154/167 "2014-01-18T22:03:04Z")
> [@dasmoocher](#): > > You know who is another high school dropout? [John Travolta](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Travolta) > > You know who flies passenger planes? John Travolta.\* > It appears that the 707 is a passenger jet: > So, could high school dropout John Travolta teach AS 121? > > \*I’ll admit I didn’t look further than Wikipedia and they’re missing the cite about his certification, but I would assume Travolta flies his own 707 although he may not be licensed as a commercial airline pilot. But the Wikipedia article also mentions that: He dropped out of high school, not out of flight school, right? Did not he fly a lot with instructor and solo? Did not he pass several FAA written exams and flight tests? As you know, Abagnale had no training in sociology whatsoever. > [@dasmoocher](#): > > (Of course, Travolta, since he doesn’t even have a BS degree, may not actually be flying his planes, but levitating them through the air using his Scientology superpowers.) Everyone can see that Travolta flies airplanes. This is not the occupation where a piece of paper turns you into something. And what about you, can you do anything real? ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2014, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/juvenile-delinquent-taught-at-a-university/678154/168 "2014-01-18T22:19:54Z")
> [@Don\_Simus](#): > > As you know, Abagnale had no training in sociology whatsoever. He had no training as a pilot whatsoever, and yet he claims to have taken over the controls of a commercial jet in mid-flight and done such a convincing job of it that the co-pilot didn’t suspect a thing. ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2014, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/juvenile-delinquent-taught-at-a-university/678154/169 "2014-01-18T23:07:03Z")
> [@Don\_Simus](#): > > He dropped out of high school, not out of flight school, right? Did not he fly a lot with instructor and solo? Did not he pass several FAA written exams and flight tests? But…but…you said, and I quote, “To fly passenger jets one needs 4 years of study and a B.S. degree”. So how can someone without a B.S. degree fly a passenger jet? Your own statement says Travolta can’t be flying a passenger jet because he doesn’t have the needed requirement. Therefore, he must be using his Scientology powers (or some other method) and everyone just thinks he’s flying his plane. _Usthay itay isay ovedpray._ Are you saying a “piece of paper”, like a degree, is not really needed for occupations you respect, given a certain skill set, although you say they are required? What about answering my question about whether other non-pilot license holders could be qualified to give intro lectures on certain topics like regulations, aerodynamics, or weather? > [@](#): > > And what about you, can you do anything real? I can make a shoe smell. With props to Tony D’Annunzio from _Caddyshack_ ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2014, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/juvenile-delinquent-taught-at-a-university/678154/170 "2014-01-18T23:24:29Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > He had no training as a pilot whatsoever, and yet he claims to have taken over the controls of a commercial jet in mid-flight and done such a convincing job of it that the co-pilot didn’t suspect a thing. Well, you see, Abagnale is obviously lying with regard to this claim. Not withstanding John Travolta and his Scientology superpowers, you need a B.S. degree to fly a passenger plane. However, when Abagnale claims to have fooled a sociology department it is proof that sociology is a not a real academic field. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_Simus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@Don\_Simus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_Simus)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2014, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/juvenile-delinquent-taught-at-a-university/678154/171 "2014-01-19T02:30:45Z")
> [@dasmoocher](#): > > But…but…you said, and I quote, “To fly passenger jets one needs 4 years of study and a B.S. degree”. So how can someone without a B.S. degree fly a passenger jet? > > Your own statement says Travolta can’t be flying a passenger jet because he doesn’t have the needed requirement. Therefore, he must be using his Scientology powers (or some other method) and everyone just thinks he’s flying his plane. _Usthay itay isay ovedpray._ You take the quote out of context. I said that to get hired to read lectures at a university you need a PhD, while to get hired by an airline to fly jets only a B.S. This means that the crook performed at a university the duties which allegedly require 7 years of education. However for an airline he never performed the duties which require only 4 years of study. If, as you say, one needs even less education to fly a passenger jet, the fact that Abagnale never did that, while he successfully read lectures at a university, is even more striking. > [@dasmoocher](#): > > Are you saying a “piece of paper”, like a degree, is not really needed for occupations you respect, given a certain skill set, although you say they are required? I never said that certificates are not needed. In real fields they indeed certify skill levels. However, in other fields they are just pieces of paper and do not certify any real skills. > [@dasmoocher](#): > > Well, you see, Abagnale is obviously lying with regard to this claim. Abagnale simply never made such claim. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2014, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/juvenile-delinquent-taught-at-a-university/678154/172 "2014-01-19T03:25:34Z")
OK, so there is a claim by one generally reputed Master Impostor – someone who is allegedly among the world’s best at knowing how to keep up a front and even pass \* briefly\* among professionals (if not challenged) in a number of different areas – to have performed some duties associated with the entry level of academics in a social science (remember, when confronted even HE did NOT claim he was hired as an _actual professor_ ). And IF that is to be lent credibility, does this constitute evidence that particular field of study is not “real”? Is that your claim, sir? Should we ask rather if it makes the entire profession of \*undergraduate teaching \*be that which is “not real”? Remenber, Abnagale never performed any work in actual sociological research and never claimed to have done so, just to have conducted lectures . Or maybe it makes the occupation of \*hiring manager at the BYU School of Social Science in the 1960s \*be the one that was “not real”. > [@Don\_Simus](#): > > I never said that certificates are not needed. In real fields they indeed certify skill levels. However, in other fields they are just pieces of paper and do not certify any real skills. Sociology is a real field of study and research. So is philosophy. So is art and literary criticism. Are you in fact suggesting they are not? ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2014, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/juvenile-delinquent-taught-at-a-university/678154/173 "2014-01-19T03:27:12Z")
> [@Don\_Simus](#): > > Abagnale simply never made such claim. Then why did you agree that he had made such a claim back in post #115? ---
**Author:** ![Ace309](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ace309/32/1050_2.png) [@Ace309](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ace309)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2014, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/juvenile-delinquent-taught-at-a-university/678154/174 "2014-01-19T03:28:59Z")
> [@Don\_Simus](#): > > You take the quote out of context. I said that to get hired to read lectures at a university you need a PhD, … This is still false. You should stop claiming it. ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2014, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/juvenile-delinquent-taught-at-a-university/678154/175 "2014-01-19T05:02:24Z")
> [@Don\_Simus](#): > > You take the quote out of context. I said that to get hired to read lectures at a university you need a PhD, while to get hired by an airline to fly jets only a B.S. Really? Here’s where you said it in response to one of my questions: > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Originally Posted by \*\*dasmoocher \*\* > > As others have mentioned, wouldn’t the correct analogy with impersonating a pilot be conducting and publishing original research in sociology? > > No it would not. To fly passenger jets one needs 4 years of study and a B.S. degree. This the same as the minimum requirement (in terms of years of study and degree) to teach college courses. Airline pilots do not do anything original. An analogy with original research would be finding new routes through mountains flying earlier low ceiling airplanes. In aviation such things are in the past. Where did you say “to get hired by an airline”? Seems to me that you want to apply some context that was not in your original statement. Flying a passenger jet is not the same thing as getting hired by an airline. And, note that you said a B.S. was the minimum requirement for teaching classes, not a Ph.D. > [@](#): > > This means that the crook performed at a university the duties which allegedly require 7 years of education. However for an airline he never performed the duties which require only 4 years of study. > > If, as you say, one needs even less education to fly a passenger jet, the fact that Abagnale never did that, while he successfully read lectures at a university, is even more striking. Plenty of people here have pointed out that the duties Abagnale performed (if he actually did at all) do not require Ph.D.'s. > [@](#): > > I never said that certificates are not needed. In real fields they indeed certify skill levels. However, in other fields they are just pieces of paper and do not certify any real skills. So, again, is it your opinion that sociology is not a real field and Ph.D.'s in sociology are basically worthless pieces of paper? > [@](#): > > Abagnale simply never made such claim. See **Lamia’s** post. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_Simus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@Don\_Simus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_Simus)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2014, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/juvenile-delinquent-taught-at-a-university/678154/176 "2014-01-20T18:19:07Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > Then why did you agree that he had made such a claim back in post #115? I did not agree to it in post 115. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2014, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/juvenile-delinquent-taught-at-a-university/678154/177 "2014-01-20T18:57:42Z")
> [@Don\_Simus](#): > > I did not agree to it in post 115. Yes, you did. > [@Lamia](#): > > Here’s a funny thing. I just checked in the book _Catch Me If You Can_, and **Frank Abagnale claims that on at least one occasion he _did_ take control of a jet while the real pilot took a break.** The co-pilot remained in the cockpit and apparently did not notice that Abagnale had absolutely no flight training. > [@Don\_Simus](#): > > The episode you are referring to was as follows. **He wrote that the pilot offered him to take pilot’s seat. Abagnale took it and immediately switched the airplane to autopilot.** This is not exactly flying the airplane, right? Later: > [@Lamia](#): > > He had no training as a pilot whatsoever, and yet \*\*he claims to have taken over the controls of a commercial jet in mid-flight \*\*and done such a convincing job of it that the co-pilot didn’t suspect a thing. > [@Don\_Simus](#): > > Abagnale simply never made such claim. (Emphasis added.) You are clearly trying to play some weaselly semantic game about what constitutes “flying”, but you agreed that Abagnale took the controls of the airplane…which is exactly what I said he did. Anyone who’s interested can read the story in _Catch Me If You Can_ for themselves, but I’ll quote the most relevant portion: > [@Frank Abagnale](#): > > He [pilot Gary Giles] appraised me with casual thoroughness and then indicated his chair. “Why don’t you fly this bird for a while, Frank,” he said. “I’ll go back and mingle with the paying passengers.” … I dropped my cap on the floor and slid into the command seat, very much aware that I’d been handed custody of 140 lives, my own included. Austin [the co-pilot], who had taken the controls when Giles vacated his seat, surrendered them to me. “You got it, Captain,” he said, grinning. > > I promptly put the giant jet on automatic pilot and hoped to hell the gadget worked, because I couldn’t fly a kite. Now, perhaps you can answer a couple of questions for me. How was a juvenile delinquent and high school dropout with no flight training able to quickly and successfully operate the autopilot on a commercial jet? And, perhaps more importantly, why didn’t the co-pilot notice anything suspicious? ---
**Author:** ![Don\_Simus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@Don\_Simus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_Simus)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2014, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/juvenile-delinquent-taught-at-a-university/678154/178 "2014-01-20T20:47:03Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > Yes, you did. > Now, perhaps you can answer a couple of questions for me. How was a juvenile delinquent and high school dropout with no flight training able to quickly and successfully operate the autopilot on a commercial jet? And, perhaps more importantly, why didn’t the co-pilot notice anything suspicious? He flew lots of times in cockpit and have seen how pilots operate the airplane including engaging and disengaging the autopilot. Why should it be difficult? [![](https://classicjetsims.com/CF-104/images/autopilot.jpg) ](https://classicjetsims.com/CF-104/images/autopilot.jpg) Besides, could you please answer one simple question? You are so educated and intelligent . Perhaps Abagnale’s BYU position did not require a PhD, but yours certainly does. Why you don’t fly a Cessna? ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2014, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/juvenile-delinquent-taught-at-a-university/678154/179 "2014-01-20T20:53:58Z")
> [@Don\_Simus](#): > > Besides, could you please answer one simple question? It’s a long thread, so maybe I’ve missed it, but—have _you_ answered **enalzi** ’s “one simple question” yet? > [@AlsoNamedBort](#): > > I know this is a fool’s errand, but I’m going to do it anyway. > > Don, I have one simple question for you: > What is your point? > > Please note, responding with another question about what I think is not a point. ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2014, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/juvenile-delinquent-taught-at-a-university/678154/180 "2014-01-20T21:07:03Z")
> [@Don\_Simus](#): > > Besides, could you please answer one simple question? Could you? > [@AlsoNamedBort](#): > > I know this is a fool’s errand, but I’m going to do it anyway. > > Don, I have one simple question for you: > What is your point? > > Please note, responding with another question about what I think is not a point. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/juvenile-delinquent-taught-at-a-university/678154.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/juvenile-delinquent-taught-at-a-university/678154.md?page=10)