JW woman refuses blood, dies in childbirth

Auntbeast, as a matter of fact, JWs DO have church elders follow them into the hospital to check on them. Baptized Dubs carry a NO BLOOD card that specifies in case of emergency, elder so and so is to be called. Many hospitals have a JW ‘Hospital Liaison Committee’ that has all the privileges of any other clergy go visit hospitalized Witnesses.

HIPPA regs do not factor in to a dubs hospitalization, because of the wording on the NO Blood Card. It gives the HLC express permission to view any hospital record of their flock.

Even if a JW has not made their religious preference known, visiting friends and family will rat them out to the elders if they are seen with a bag of blood. This is built into their belief system; if someone knows of a wrongdoing, and doesn’t report it, they are just as guilty, and all penalties will apply, i.e. shunning. Total cutting off from friends and family that are true believers.

What is really sad is the fact that the Governing Body of JW has eased up on taking many blood components but hasn’t shared in a meaningful way which ones are OK and what is to be avoided, negating any real informed choice on the part of an ill or injured witness. Basically, all components but red blood cells are allowed, but components can’t be given together. They are told that it is a ‘conscience matter’ whether to accept blood or blood products, and if their conscience will allow it, they face the possibility of disfellowshiping and the prerequisite shunning it entails. To many of them, death is preferable to disfellowship.

There is a recent development on this matter for unbelieving family, called the “Tort Of Misrepresentation”. There will be many lawsuits based on this principle. There is one in the works in Canada by a father of a 14yo girl who died of leukemia. She was told by church elders/church paid doctors that blood would not help her, but an arsenic compound would. Lawrence Hughes is his name, I believe. Hope he sets a president.

Here is a thread about it on an ex-JW forum. Mum aged 22 dies for Jehovah

Good news, and bad news.

There are too many Jehovahs Witnesses in this world, and damn them all for banging on my door too early on a sunday morning.

On the other hand, there are way too many motherless children in this world.

This is why I’m against organized religion. If you can’t think for yourself, you don’t deserve a brain.

Amen, Only Human, Amen!

It raises the question as to whether extreme religious beliefs are in fact no more than symptoms of mental illness that negate a person’s ability to make a rational decision.

I suppose it could be worse. At least they are into killing themselves, rather than killing others.

Muffin
This is an interesting point and something I’ve often wondered about. Where is that line drawn between being normally religious and bat-shit insane?

It seems that sorta-kinda believing, as most people do, is OK, but people that really believe and will tell you with a straight face that the world is 6K years old or that accepting blood, eating pork or whatever damns you for all eternity, are suffering from some kind of mental disability. They aren’t all dangerously crazy but are certainly lacking somewhere in the common sense department.

It is remarkable that the less seriously someone takes their religion, the more normal and sane they appear.

Regards

Testy

It doesn’t have to be that complicated. The root problem lies in the first amendment to the U.S. Constitution, which reads: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof…’

Redact that one line, via constitutional convention or amendment, and we’re golden.

KGS
How do you figure this? I don’t believe that passing laws restricting religions are very helpful. Some people would still be just as gullible and there would still be the same number of loons in the world. At least religion (mostly) gives them something to do and keeps them from interfering with others too badly.

As far as the JW woman goes, I’m with the “Darwin in action” crowd. If she was gullible or brainwashed enough to allow her unfounded beliefs to kill her, then her death probably raised the world’s IQ and common-sense levels by some infinitesimal amount.

Regards

Testy

Another anecdote.

We had a client come in with a few questions about her taxes and we began talking. I don’t recall how it came up, but she started talking about being a JW. I’m open minded and stuff, so I was being respectful and we were having a little dialogue. Then she started. . . well, I can’t really describe it as anything but almost smug bragging . . . telling me all about how her daughter has a heart condition (hole in her heart, maybe? I can’t remember) and she is such a GOOD JW that she would NEVER get her child a blood transfusion.

Throughout the course of our discussion, I come to find out that she has been told her 4 year old daughter will not live another year without massive heart surgery. The surgery though, should be fairly simple and is almost guaranteed to be a total success. Naturally, a blood transfusion HAS to be done along with the surgery and mom just is not ok with that. So, she told me, she’s waiting to find a doctor who will do the surgery without a transfusion.

Call it what you want it, but this woman is killing her daughter.

I’m all for religious freedoms, but for God’s sake- she’s stopping her daughter from getting a life saving treatment that will guarantee her a long life, all due to some obscure Bible verse that her church doesn’t even necessarily hold true anymore.

The OP’s case though- well, she’s an adult and can make her own decisions. I’d certainly qualify her decision as incredibly stupid, but it’s her decision regardless.

Question: are you a state mandated abuse reporter? Do you think you might want to talk this over with your supervisor and see if you need to make a call? A case like this is pretty clear cut, and if it’s brought to the attention of the courts, there’s a good chance that a judge will appoint someone to take charge of the child’s medical decisions until she’s out of danger.

A friend’s mom works for CPS and I gave her the information, but she said there probably isn’t much they can do. I do know they went out and checked out the kid, so who knows.

Ye gods, I hope I’m being whooshed here. Are you seriously advocating the banning or curtailing of religious freedom in this country because you don’t happen to believe in a higher power? Please explain to me how this point of view is any more enlightened than that of the zealot who wants to convert you to his belief system against your will.

On the chance that I am being whooshed (it wouldn’t be the first time), perhaps some of our more strident atheists would care to address the question.

And if I’ve made my wishes known before I am out cold, unable to respond, in a coma - please respect them. It isn’t like at JW woman wasn’t suddenly faced with the fact her religion didn’t allow blood transfusions, she knew that going in. Perhaps she underestimated the risk and if she’d have known she would need one she would have made a different choice. But you have to respect the choice she did make if she was not able to communicate a change in sentiment.

IANAJW, but I once dated one (which was… ill advised and he wasn’t “allowed” to date me, but he could have married me no problem!) and learned lots and lots of erm, fascinating things. I read the little blue book and stuff out of a sort of sociological/anthropological interest.

My understanding of the prohibition against blood transfusions is because the Old Testament prohibits “eating” blood. The JW rationale is that since you can take in sustenance intravenously, and transfusions are intravenous that… a transfusion is… “eating” blood.

So disheartening.

My apologies that I am unable to read the entire thread, but I just want to offer my agreement with this statement, Shoshana. My agreement and support, needed or not.

I am not a JW, I would take any blood I needed. But I completely understand why some people choose to live their life on their own terms, and I respect that entirely. I would not want anyone to decide for me what is important enough to die for.

ETA; can’t read thread properly, at work. Just wanted to get that off my chest though.

Of course not. But I do get offended when people hold religious beliefs that are inherently STUPID, whether it’s something as benign as creationism, or something downright dangerous such as denying your child a blood transfusion. And people get away with this nonsense by claiming “religious freedom” as guaranteed by the U.S. Constitution.

On the other hand, if religion were outlawed, these JW idiots would start calling their beliefs “a lifestyle choice” or something inane like that. :rolleyes:

FWIW, I find the doctrine of Jehovah’s Witnesses, Christian Scientists, and anyone who rejects medical treatment on religious grounds to be completely absurd. But as long as they limit the enforcement of such beliefs to their own bodies, neither you nor me nor Big Brother has any sayso in the matter. When it comes to refusing medical treatment for their children, or for any other person incapable of making their own opinions on the matter known…that’s an entirely different matter.

And where is the line drawn between what is normally considered to be a religion and what is normally considered to be a cult in which cult in which a person cannot make sound decisions due to being surrounded by the cult’s social and familial pressures and cult restricting education?

Obviouisly a person’s belief system guides that person in a certain direction. This stands for pretty much everyone. Where I take issue, however, is when an organization manipulates a person such that the person is unlikely to freely develop a belief system, and instead becomes indoctrinated into a system that does everything it can to prevent the person from questioning, learning, and developing.

In short, if a person is able to look at all the options, and freely pick between them, then I am willing to respect that person’s decision and respect that person’s religion. If a person is not able to look at all the options, and is not able to freely pick between them, then I am not willing to respect that person’s decision, and I am not willing to respect that person’s cult.

Given JW’s emphasis on disfellowship (extreme shunning), general isolation from the overall apostate/non-JW community (they will knock on your door, but you won’t find them on your ball team or bridge club or Rotary club), and rejection of apostate/non-JW education and general apostate/non-JW intellectual discourse and reading, I believe JW is a cult, and that JW members are not necesarily are capable of making free and informed decisions due to the control the cult has had in forming their beliefs.

Now let’s take this, and then look back on my query if such extreme religious beliefs are simply symptoms of mental illness. I submit that profound religous experiences are simply the result of a jigging of neuro-transmitters in the brain (have a boo at Laurentian University’s Michael Persinger’s work on elector-magnetic and chemical influences on the brain with respect to religious experiences). The combination of the physically scrambled functioning of the person’s brain, combined with the effects of the cult environment makes for a very nasty combination that effectively removes the person’s ability to make a free and informed decision.

By the way, there was an interesting thread in which a devout JW (who left when no one bought his line, but otherwise was very well spoken and would have been a good SDMB contributor had he stayed) and I (who thinks religious belief is the result of a brain fart combined with social pressures) discussed religion. In it I set out the following concering cult tactics (note: disfellowship is the JW terms for extreme shunning, aposte is the JW terms for a non-JW, and my cites are all from JW publications that are intended to direct JWs): Why do we believe in God, when there is no scientific evidence of its existance - #138 by Muffin - Great Debates - Straight Dope Message Board

*That’s where I have concerns about cults, for once a sense of close personal community is developed, that tremendously valuable sense of personal community can be held for ransom by forcing a person to either toe the official line, or else be shunned by that community – including one’s close friends and one’s family. When it comes to that point, one is not truly free to choose one’s own path. It is emotional blackmail.

For example: *

[INDENT]The Watchtower September 15, 1981, page 25
“A simple ‘Hello’ to someone can be the first step that develops into a conversation and maybe even a friendship. Would we want to take that first step with a disfellowshipped person?”

Watchtower 1988 April 15 p.27
“The situation is different if the disfellowshipped or disassociated one is a relative living outside the immediate family circle and home. It might be possible to have almost no contact at all with the relative. Even if there were some family matters requiring contact, this certainly would be kept to a minimum, in line with the divine principle: “Quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person [or guilty of another gross sin], . . . not even eating with such a man.”—1 Corinthians 5:11.”
“Understandably, this may be difficult because of emotions and family ties, such as grandparents’ love for their grandchildren. Yet, this is a test of loyalty to God, as stated by the sister quoted on page 26.”

Watchtower 1963 July 15 p.444
“The wrongdoer has to realize that his status is completely changed, that his faithful Christian relatives thoroughly disapprove of his wicked course and show this disapproval by limiting contacts to only those which are unavoidable…”

Kingdom Ministry 2002 August p.3
“God’s Word states that we should ‘not even eat with such a man.’ (1 Cor. 5:11) Hence, we also avoid social fellowship with an expelled person. This would rule out joining him in a picnic, party, ball game, or trip to the mall or theater or sitting down to a meal with him either in the home or at a restaurant.”

Watchtower 1952 March 1 pp.131, 134
“We might wonder, then, since this congregation which God is developing or bringing into existence is based on love, why anyone should ever want to talk about disfellowshipping or putting people out of this congregation. There certainly must be some reason. Well, the reason for disfellowshipping is that some persons get into this congregation of God that do not love Christ. … Those who are acquainted with the situation in the congregation should never say ‘Hello’ or ‘Goodbye’ to him. He is not welcome in our midst, we avoid him. … Such an individual has no place in the clean organization or congregation of God. He should go back to the wicked group that he once came from and die with that wicked group with Satan’s organization.”

*That’s how I find most Jehovah’s Witnesses – reluctant to use critical thinking. *
The Watchtower, August 1, 1980, p. 19:
“Thus, the one who doubts to the point of becoming an apostate sets himself up as a judge. He thinks he knows better than his fellow Christians, better also than the ‘faithful and discreet slave,’ through whom he has learned the best part, if not all that he knows about Jehovah God and his purposes.”

The Watchtower, March 15, 1986, p. 12
“Do you wisely destroy apostate material?”

The Watchtower, March 15, 1986, p. 14
“Why is reading apostate publications similar to reading pornographic literature?”

The Watchtower, March 15, 1986, p. 17
“Beware of those who try to put forward their own contrary opinions.”

I have regularly attend various religion’s/sect’s ceremonies, repeatedly sat with elders of other religions to receive their teachings, and studied various religions and religious texts both on my own, in unstructured groups, and in formal academic settings. If you were to do this on a frequent and ongoing basis, would that put you at risk of disfellowship?[/INDENT]I question whether anyone fully inculcated into such a belief system would be fully and freely capable of making an informed decision that was contrary to that cult. Sometimes our belief systems control us rather than guide us. I am of the opinion that JW is such a system.

Meh, to each his/her own.

Um … where does Satan live, Beverly Hills? And if the rest of us will be wiped out, what happens to our souls? Or do we not have souls? I mean, I’m okay with that, I’m just wonderin’.