# Kalhoun, you are out of control. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 3, 2007, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kalhoun-you-are-out-of-control/402602 "2007-05-03T13:21:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2007, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kalhoun-you-are-out-of-control/402602/61 "2007-05-03T21:18:30Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] I was answering those questions, wasn’t I? The picture I presented of where I stood on the issue was reasonably complete, wasn’t it? Even if it wasn’t, a polite question would have been nice, rather than a nasty one. You chose to muddy things considerably with your rude and over the top contributions to that debate. I didn’t think that had any place in that conversation, which is why I came here. [/QUOTE] Impolite? _Over the top??_ > [@](#): > > Quote: > Originally Posted by Kalhoun > Do you believe that a person cannot change their life? Do you believe that all non-convicts always place a vote that is in the best interest of the country? Do you believe that all aspects of a criminal’s being are bad? Do you believe that all shoplifters should forfeit their driver’s license? > > Quote: > Originally Posted by Kalhoun > Might as well suspend medical care and book learnin’ too. Fuckin’ sub-humans. What rock did you grow up under? Just answer the questions as they were posed to you. Or don’t. And have your sarcas-o-meter checked. It’s malfunctioning. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2007, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kalhoun-you-are-out-of-control/402602/62 "2007-05-03T21:22:14Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] I just brought it here because I didn’t think it was appropriate to get into a pissing match in the other thread. [/QUOTE] Why…because I disagreed with your jackboot brand of justice? Because I was debating the issue and expressing my disrespect for your position? ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2007, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kalhoun-you-are-out-of-control/402602/63 "2007-05-03T21:52:30Z")
[QUOTE=Kalhoun] Why…because I disagreed with your jackboot brand of justice? Because I was debating the issue and expressing my disrespect for your position? [/QUOTE] If you are debating, then there should be some sort of non pissing match response to your last statement. Tell us what sort of response Moto could have given you that would have been appropriate for the forum. Mr. Moto actually seemed to hold a fairly open minded, somewhat sensible position. He was in favor of allowing people to get their vote back, per his comments on the Virginia process. He admitted that he would have no problem if Virginia gave them the vote back after completion of parole. The only things he disagreed with was giving them the vote while incarcerated and giving it back automatically while they’re still on parole. BTW, on parole does not mean you’ve served your sentence, it just means they’re letting you walk free while reserving the right to throw you back in the slammer if you don’t play nice. Even after admitting multiple times that he was OK with re-enfranchisement, you decide to lay down sarcastic strawmen responses that there is no reasonable response to and claim Moto is the jerk. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2007, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kalhoun-you-are-out-of-control/402602/64 "2007-05-03T22:25:43Z")
Gotta go with Moto on this one. Complete misrepresentation of a reasonable position. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2007, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kalhoun-you-are-out-of-control/402602/65 "2007-05-03T22:53:26Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] I was answering those questions, wasn’t I? The picture I presented of where I stood on the issue was reasonably complete, wasn’t it? [/QUOTE] I agree that you were, and it was. Also, when I first read **Kalhoun** ’s post, I didn’t think it was sarcasm, either. I hope this doesn’t mean I have to turn in my Usual Suspect Card. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2007, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kalhoun-you-are-out-of-control/402602/66 "2007-05-03T23:26:16Z")
[QUOTE=Cheesesteak] If you are debating, then there should be some sort of non pissing match response to your last statement. Tell us what sort of response Moto could have given you that would have been appropriate for the forum. [/quote] He could have answered the questions. He could have revealed a little more of his attitudes about justice. > [@](#): > > Mr. Moto actually seemed to hold a fairly open minded, somewhat sensible position. He was in favor of allowing people to get their vote back, per his comments on the Virginia process. He admitted that he would have no problem if Virginia gave them the vote back after completion of parole. The only things he disagreed with was giving them the vote while incarcerated and giving it back automatically while they’re still on parole. BTW, on parole does not mean you’ve served your sentence, it just means they’re letting you walk free while reserving the right to throw you back in the slammer if you don’t play nice. Bullshit. He said they’d have to go through some sort of expungment or pardon process. When the sentence is completed (whether that includes parole or not…and it _doesn’t_ always, even when the most heinous of crimes is committed) the ex-con should be free to resume his life, in total. The exception _in my opinion_ might be with regard to violent crime and being forbidden to own firearms. But even that is questionable, as a violent crime can be committed with something other than a firearm. **Moto** failed to explain what the benefit would be with regard to crime, punishment, protection, and the general good of the country. We’re waiting. > [@](#): > > Even after admitting multiple times that he was OK with re-enfranchisement, you decide to lay down sarcastic strawmen responses that there is no reasonable response to and claim Moto is the jerk. Sarcastic? Absolutely. So what? He wasn’t “ok” with re-enfranchisement; he wanted the ex-con to jump through hoops that are unrelated to the crime he committed. He wanted them to cough up some sort of proof that no one else has to produce. For no other reason than to be a Governmental Pricktoid. There were no strawmen. They were honest questions that he chose not to answer. And that’s his perogative. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2007, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kalhoun-you-are-out-of-control/402602/67 "2007-05-04T00:03:32Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] For me, a good post would be one that facilitated an understanding among one another. [/QUOTE] Then you’ve turned over a new leaf? Excellent! I remember when you were king of the cryptic posts. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2007, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kalhoun-you-are-out-of-control/402602/68 "2007-05-04T00:42:52Z")
[QUOTE=Kalhoun] Bullshit. He said they’d have to go through some sort of expungment or pardon process. [/quote] > [@](#): > > He wasn’t “ok” with re-enfranchisement; he wanted the ex-con to jump through hoops that are unrelated to the crime he committed. He wanted them to cough up some sort of proof that no one else has to produce. For no other reason than to be a Governmental Pricktoid. Is that so? > [@you](#): > > What if your state decides that a sentence is served once the felon is released back into society? Are you ok with that as long as the state is? > [@Moto's Response](#): > > I’ve told you what my personal preference is. But if Virginia decides to enfranchise felons upon completion of their parole, I wouldn’t be too upset. His personal preference? > [@Mr. Moto](#): > > I would prefer to see evidence of rehabilitation before restoring the voting rights to those convicted of felonies. So, he has a preference you don’t agree with, but will accept the decision of the state if they vote to have automatic enfranchisement upon completion of parole. Truly, he is a monster. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2007, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kalhoun-you-are-out-of-control/402602/69 "2007-05-04T01:01:32Z")
[QUOTE=Cheesesteak] Is that so? His personal preference? So, he has a preference you don’t agree with, but will accept the decision of the state if they vote to have automatic enfranchisement upon completion of parole. Truly, he is a monster. [/QUOTE] I never said he was a monster. I said his support of disenfranchisement is stupid. Aside from that, he feels that ex-felons should be somehow not quite as citizeny as the rest of us. > [@](#): > > Originally posted by **Moto:** > > Hasn’t their citizenship been degraded somehow? and > [@](#): > > For people whose behavior crosses into felony territory, they absolutely can be punished in this way. **And I believe, personally, that until they are rehabilitated that it is a good idea**. (aside from the disconnect of the whole thing, he hasn’t offered up a plan for that rehabilitation guarantee) and he also said this: > [@](#): > > I would have a big problem with allowing incarcerated felons or those under current parole or probationary supervision to vote, for the reasons I stated above. …except I couldn’t find where he stated reasons. I only saw him parroting law. If someone could find those “reasons” for me I’d appreciate it. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2007, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kalhoun-you-are-out-of-control/402602/70 "2007-05-04T01:05:10Z")
[QUOTE=Kalhoun] …except I couldn’t find where he stated reasons. I only saw him parroting law. If someone could find those “reasons” for me I’d appreciate it. [/QUOTE] He believes that the completion of a sentence does not, in and of itself, demonstrate rehabilitation. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2007, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kalhoun-you-are-out-of-control/402602/71 "2007-05-04T01:24:01Z")
[QUOTE=Frank] He believes that the completion of a sentence does not, in and of itself, demonstrate rehabilitation. [/QUOTE] Nor does it exclude rehabilitation, in and of itself. So what’s his point? ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2007, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kalhoun-you-are-out-of-control/402602/72 "2007-05-04T01:43:10Z")
[QUOTE=Kalhoun] Nor does it exclude rehabilitation, in and of itself. So what’s his point? [/QUOTE] Neither case is provable. He feels more comfortable with a waiting period and a separate process; I (for example) feel that completion of the sentence is enough. I think that’s something on which reasonable people can disagree. I think that’s all his point is. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2007, 8:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kalhoun-you-are-out-of-control/402602/73 "2007-05-04T08:48:36Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly] > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by Liberal > For me, a good post would be one that facilitated an understanding among one another. Then you’ve turned over a new leaf? Excellent! I remember when you were king of the cryptic posts. [/QUOTE] You’ve assumed I think my own posts are good. You’re projecting. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2007, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kalhoun-you-are-out-of-control/402602/74 "2007-05-04T11:26:54Z")
[QUOTE=Frank] Neither case is provable. He feels more comfortable with a waiting period and a separate process; I (for example) feel that completion of the sentence is enough. I think that’s something on which reasonable people can disagree. I think that’s all his point is. [/QUOTE] And I was disagreeing. He’s the one who felt disagreement with anything other than a clinical, non-emotional presentation was worthy of a pitting. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2007, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kalhoun-you-are-out-of-control/402602/75 "2007-05-04T12:15:48Z")
[QUOTE=Kalhoun] I never said he was a monster. I said his support of disenfranchisement is stupid. [/quote] What about his support for re-enfranchisement? You asked him what he would think if Virginia loosened their restrictions, he says he wouldn’t have much of a problem with that, and you respond to that with an insult. > [@](#): > > Aside from that, he feels that ex-felons should be somehow not quite as citizeny as the rest of us. But he would be fine if the state decided to give ex-felons (felons who completed their sentence) the vote back. Clearly he doesn’t want current felons to be allowed to vote, a position shared by many people, and the law in 48 states. Felons are removed from society for their bad acts, until they’ve served their time. Voting is something you get to do when you’re part of the community, if you’ve harmed the community and are being separated from the community, losing the vote can be thought of a part of that process. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2007, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kalhoun-you-are-out-of-control/402602/76 "2007-05-04T13:07:19Z")
[QUOTE=Richard Parker] First, let me say that I took you and others to be saying that the board _in general_ treats conservatives poorly. I think that thread is evidence in quite the other direction, regardless of how you come out on Kalhoun’s two comments (of many). [/quote] Must be a point of view thing - I would say that **Kalhoun** ’s comments (and much of the first page of this thread) are evidence in favor of my position. To be fair to the boards, **Cheesesteak** and **Frank** are doing a good job of pointing out that **Mr. Moto** is _not_ refusing to answer any questions, or that he is debating in any way in bad faith, or any of the rest of the dust **Kalhoun** is trying to throw up to disguise her chagrin at being out-debated. The board does not consist entirely of Usual Suspects. There’s too many of them, and they are hugely over-represented by left-wing assholes, but (as I also mentioned earlier) **Mr. Moto** and **Bricker** and **Sam Stone** and **Starving Artist** and so forth are easily the equal of any of them. And now that some of the Usual Suspects have had their shit in the thread, it is possible to develop some kind of reasonable discussion. My point is that the boards do have people, several of them, who shit in threads, and make it a point to aim it at conservatives. > [@](#): > > Second, I think your hypothetical comment as-stated is probably unfair. But it’s sort of a gray area. If it’s used to dismiss everything the person is saying, I think it’s unfair and pointless. A fair position. And I would say that the fact is that **Kalhoun** is merely repeating that anyone who does not agree with her opinion is a monster/Pricktoid who thinks ex-felons are subhuman and so forth. And since **Czarcasm** ’s _ad hominem_ was pretty much his only contribution to the thread, I think we can agree that he was dismissing everything **Mr. Moto** was saying, and is unfair and pointless. > [@](#): > > Are you referring to **Czarcasm** ’s comment? Yes. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2007, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kalhoun-you-are-out-of-control/402602/77 "2007-05-04T13:13:54Z")
[QUOTE=Cheesesteak] What about his support for re-enfranchisement? You asked him what he would think if Virginia loosened their restrictions, he says he wouldn’t have much of a problem with that, and you respond to that with an insult. But he would be fine if the state decided to give ex-felons (felons who completed their sentence) the vote back. Clearly he doesn’t want current felons to be allowed to vote, a position shared by many people, and the law in 48 states. Felons are removed from society for their bad acts, until they’ve served their time. Voting is something you get to do when you’re part of the community, if you’ve harmed the community and are being separated from the community, losing the vote can be thought of a part of that process. [/QUOTE] Well, he’s sending mixed messages as far as I’m concerned. He’s not for simply giving them the vote back when their sentence is served. He’d be fine with looser restrictions if his state decided that, but really…what choice would he have? He’s leaving it up to the state. I was looking for a deeper gaze into who HE is. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2007, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kalhoun-you-are-out-of-control/402602/78 "2007-05-04T13:38:00Z")
Maybe you should have asked me, then. ---
**Author:** ![Sal\_Ammoniac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Sal\_Ammoniac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sal_Ammoniac)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2007, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kalhoun-you-are-out-of-control/402602/79 "2007-05-04T13:38:14Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] And now that some of the Usual Suspects have had their shit in the thread, it is possible to develop some kind of reasonable discussion. My point is that the boards do have people, several of them, who shit in threads, and make it a point to aim it at conservatives. [/QUOTE] And whom exactly – by name – are you accusing of shitting in this thread? ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2007, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kalhoun-you-are-out-of-control/402602/80 "2007-05-04T14:03:32Z")
[QUOTE=Kalhoun] He’d be fine with looser restrictions if his state decided that, but really…what choice would he have? He’s leaving it up to the state. I was looking for a deeper gaze into who HE is. [/QUOTE] Are you “fine” with the way Bush is dealing with Iraq, because you don’t have any choice in the matter? To me, his being fine with it indicates two things. One, the proposed process is close enough to his preference that there’s no need to be upset. Two, the right people (the state) are making the decision, it’s not being forced on them from the federales like some other posters would prefer. Right from his initial post, he supported a “robust” system to give the vote back to people who have “reformed” their lives. What reformed means is open to debate, but he seems willing to accept full completion of sentence (including parole) as the dividing line, even if his personal preference is more stringent. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kalhoun-you-are-out-of-control/402602.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kalhoun-you-are-out-of-control/402602.md?page=5)