# Kamau Bell and Racist Five Year Olds **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 2, 2017, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kamau-bell-and-racist-five-year-olds/785729 "2017-05-02T17:23:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2017, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kamau-bell-and-racist-five-year-olds/785729/181 "2017-05-09T02:23:43Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Certainly not in your post :). **Bone** , if you’re looking for the sort of thing that dilutes the word “racism,” applying it to events like this is a real candidate. Yup. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2017, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kamau-bell-and-racist-five-year-olds/785729/182 "2017-05-09T03:11:16Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Certainly not in your post :). **Bone** , if you’re looking for the sort of thing that dilutes the word “racism,” applying it to events like this is a real candidate. Right, because considering children in kindergarten or whatever touching hair to be a symptom of society as a whole being racist while disregarding real segregated events strictly based on so-called race is not a bizarre state of affairs. Even Jonathan Swift would think this is satire too far. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2017, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kamau-bell-and-racist-five-year-olds/785729/183 "2017-05-09T03:23:36Z")
> [@Warm\_blood](#): > > I mean if you want to play dumb and pretend you don’t notice that black people have a unique grade of hair that is noticeably distinctive from that of other races and that has historically been mocked and shamed because of this difference, then by all means do so. > > Just be aware that this feigned ignorance in order to make a point leaves you looking anything but smart. You’re essentially pretending that racism has nothing to do with physical appearance. As much as I don’t like to moderate edge cases in threads where I’m a heavy participant, this really is a bridge too far. Please don’t assume other posters’ motivations or impugn their intelligence in this fashion. [/moderating] ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2017, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kamau-bell-and-racist-five-year-olds/785729/184 "2017-05-09T14:54:17Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Perhaps more so it is a simple illustration of how a behavior not motivated out of even any implicit (subconscious) racist beliefs can still have racist impacts. > > One group is going to have hair that stands out more and attracts those touches more, the big haired Black girls in that Kindergarten room. The system is not designed to make them feel self-conscious, upset, or ashamed of their hair; the other kids are not thinking or implying that the big natural hair is bad or inferior in anyway - they just notice it is … different … comment on it as five year olds will do, and want to experience it by touching it as five year olds do. No racist intent of the children or of the system. But the result is specific to the group of young Black girls who become as a result potentially self-conscious of, upset about, ashamed of their hair in its natural state (and to some extent one can argue, of the beauty of their own unadulterated features), and try to change themselves to avoid standing out and being touched. > > Is this the big item in the race issues bucket list? No of course not and as Bell’s story illustrates positive messaging consistently given without having to hit her over the head with it can offset the result above. But while I do not get the impression that Bell realizes it, it does serve as a good illustration of how racist impacts can occur _without any racists,_ just out of simple ignorance or even innocence coupled with curiosity. > > And yes structural racism, racist outcomes that occur even when all those of the system are committed to treating all equally because of the structure of the system, is a major issue. But we can’t even talk about this because apparently the really important issue is that we be fair to the little white kids who don’t know any better. Impugning their motives is the \*\*interesting \*\*crime–that’s the thing we need to start a thread about. Bell is an “asshole” for not first and foremost defending those girls, and instead focusing on his daughter’s reaction and the potential impact on her sense of self. That failure to make sure to explicitly absolve those girls before talking about his own somehow invalidates everything else. We will never make any progress talking about implicit racism–about these sorts of situations–as long as white people feel like the first and most important point on the agenda is being fair to white people and absolving them of racism. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2017, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kamau-bell-and-racist-five-year-olds/785729/185 "2017-05-09T16:19:03Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > But we can’t even talk about this because apparently the really important issue is that we be fair to the little white kids who don’t know any better. Impugning their motives is the \*\*interesting \*\*crime–that’s the thing we need to start a thread about. Bell is an “asshole” for not first and foremost defending those girls, and instead focusing on his daughter’s reaction and the potential impact on her sense of self. That failure to make sure to explicitly absolve those girls before talking about his own somehow invalidates everything else. > > We will never make any progress talking about implicit racism–about these sorts of situations–as long as white people feel like the first and most important point on the agenda is being fair to white people and absolving them of racism. The fact that we are talking about this sort of undermines your thesis. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2017, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kamau-bell-and-racist-five-year-olds/785729/186 "2017-05-09T16:28:42Z")
You could resolve the situation in the OP the way Bell did - by not bringing race into it at all. You teach kids not to touch each other without permission. That’s fair to everyone, white or black, and it doesn’t single out the black kid as Other. > [@](#): > > We will never make any progress talking about implicit racism–about these sorts of situations–as long as white people feel like the first and most important point on the agenda is being fair to white people and absolving them of racism. We also aren’t going to get anywhere if the first requirement is for white people to admit they are racist, even when they don’t intend to be. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2017, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kamau-bell-and-racist-five-year-olds/785729/187 "2017-05-09T16:38:51Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > We also aren’t going to get anywhere if the first requirement is for white people to admit they are racist, even when they don’t intend to be. Why? Seems like acknowledgement of implicit bias and white privilege are pretty useful starting points, actually. That way the conversation can get past some of the emotional response and defensiveness that happens when the white people in question think they are being accused of bigotry. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2017, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kamau-bell-and-racist-five-year-olds/785729/188 "2017-05-09T16:41:22Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Why? Seems like acknowledgement of implicit bias and white privilege are pretty useful starting points, actually. That way the conversation can get past some of the emotional response and defensiveness that happens when the white people in question think they are being accused of bigotry. It’s not useful at all actually. It’s a bit ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2017, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kamau-bell-and-racist-five-year-olds/785729/189 "2017-05-09T16:46:13Z")
It’s always useful if you can get the other side to agree that you are right at the start of a discussion. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2017, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kamau-bell-and-racist-five-year-olds/785729/190 "2017-05-09T16:46:28Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > It’s not useful at all actually. It’s a bit ridiculous. Which part? The concept of white privilege, or implicit bias, or both? I find that these concepts are rather consistently misunderstood, and I think they’re worth exploring. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2017, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kamau-bell-and-racist-five-year-olds/785729/191 "2017-05-09T16:47:40Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > It’s always useful if you can get the other side to agree that you are right at the start of a discussion. > > Regards, > Shodan But acknowledging that white privilege and implicit bias exist isn’t agreeing that the other side is right – they could well exist, but not be present in a particular scenario. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2017, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kamau-bell-and-racist-five-year-olds/785729/192 "2017-05-09T16:56:57Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > It’s always useful if you can get the other side to agree that you are right at the start of a discussion. I had not understood that your position involves the rejection of the very idea of implicit bias or white privilege. Obviously, if that’s the conversation, you don’t start there. Frankly, I talk to a lot of white people about racism from across the spectrum. Once they understand the definitions of those terms, few believe they don’t exist. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2017, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kamau-bell-and-racist-five-year-olds/785729/193 "2017-05-09T17:32:21Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > The fact that we are talking about this sort of undermines your thesis. But we aren’t talking about it. The conversation keeps getting hauled back to the white people in the situation. > [@Shodan](#): > > You could resolve the situation in the OP the way Bell did - by not bringing race into it at all. You teach kids not to touch each other without permission. That’s fair to everyone, white or black, and it doesn’t single out the black kid as Other. We also aren’t going to get anywhere if the first requirement is for white people to admit they are racist, even when they don’t intend to be. > > Regards, > Shodan If white people aren’t willing to admit they are racist–that they have implicit biases and even explicit prejudices that need to be examined–we aren’t ever going to get anywhere. Full stop. Do you really think the responsible thing for a black parent to do is to ignore/downplay the possibility of there being a racial component to how their kids are treated? That the way to be successful as a black person in a racist society is to bend over backward to ignore anything that suggests racially-influenced thinking in others unless and until it’s so blatant and obvious that that is the only possible explanation? Because I don’t think that’s effective. I don’t think it’s a way to get through life. To be successful you have to have an accurate understanding of how others perceive you. It’s the absolute bedrock of communication. It’s ridiculous to demand that white people should get the absolute benefit of the doubt for risk of being “unfair”, when the scales are already tipped so far towards the white people. This little girl getting her hair touched is the beginning of a pattern that has the potential to erode her sense of self. Why is the dad an “asshole” for being aware of that, for taking steps to help minimize the impact that this sort of thing will have on his daughter going forward? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2017, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kamau-bell-and-racist-five-year-olds/785729/194 "2017-05-09T17:37:31Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Which part? The concept of white privilege, or implicit bias, or both? I find that these concepts are rather consistently misunderstood, and I think they’re worth exploring. > [@MandaJo](#): > > But we aren’t talking about it. The conversation keeps getting hauled back to the white people in the situation. > > If white people aren’t willing to admit they are racist–that they have implicit biases and even explicit prejudices that need to be examined–we aren’t ever going to get anywhere. Full stop. > > Do you really think the responsible thing for a black parent to do is to ignore/downplay the possibility of there being a racial component to how their kids are treated? That the way to be successful as a black person in a racist society is to bend over backward to ignore anything that suggests racially-influenced thinking in others unless and until it’s so blatant and obvious that that is the only possible explanation? > > Because I don’t think that’s effective. I don’t think it’s a way to get through life. To be successful you have to have an accurate understanding of how others perceive you. It’s the absolute bedrock of communication. It’s ridiculous to demand that white people should get the absolute benefit of the doubt for risk of being “unfair”, when the scales are already tipped so far towards the white people. > > This little girl getting her hair touched is the beginning of a pattern that has the potential to erode her sense of self. Why is the dad an “asshole” for being aware of that, for taking steps to help minimize the impact that this sort of thing will have on his daughter going forward? Traits and collective guilt based on skin color? Forgive me I refuse to concede that point. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2017, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kamau-bell-and-racist-five-year-olds/785729/195 "2017-05-09T17:44:01Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Traits and collective guilt based on skin color? Forgive me I refuse to concede that point. Who said anything about guilt? As for common traits, this is an indictment of our society and culture (in this specific instance), not of any individuals. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2017, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kamau-bell-and-racist-five-year-olds/785729/196 "2017-05-09T18:18:01Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > If white people aren’t willing to admit they are racist–that they have implicit biases and even explicit prejudices that need to be examined–we aren’t ever going to get anywhere. Full stop. If the _sine qua non_ of any discussion about race has to include white people admitting they are racist, then you are correct. We aren’t going to get anywhere. > [@](#): > > Do you really think the responsible thing for a black parent to do is to ignore/downplay the possibility of there being a racial component to how their kids are treated? Isn’t that what Bell did? Do you think he was not being responsible? > [@](#): > > Because I don’t think that’s effective. I don’t think it’s a way to get through life. To be successful you have to have an accurate understanding of how others perceive you. It’s the absolute bedrock of communication. I can accurately understand that some people believe I’m racist because I’m white. What difference does that make to me? If that means we can’t have a discussion with each other about race, well, I’ll live. I’ll just put my $.02 worth into discussions with someone else. Those who can’t accept it because I don’t begin with the ritual denunciation of my race, _:shrugs:_ Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2017, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kamau-bell-and-racist-five-year-olds/785729/197 "2017-05-09T18:34:39Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > If white people aren’t willing to admit they are racist… “If gentiles aren’t willing to admit they are anti-semitic…” “If heterosexuals aren’t willing to admit they are homophobic…” “If males aren’t willing to admit they are misogynistic…” Don’t you see how unhelpful this sort of construction is? Starting with sweeping racially-based pronouncements and a presumption of guilt based on a personally formulated definition of a word is not a sensible way to start a productive conversation…it never is. And this is just a re-worked version of original sin, we are born sick and commanded to be well, sod that. Judge me on my actions and the content of my character please. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2017, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kamau-bell-and-racist-five-year-olds/785729/198 "2017-05-09T18:38:23Z")
Your belief that you’re not furthering racism because you have good character and lack conscious bigotry is, in 2017, a bigger problem than conscious bigotry. You’re wrong, and the only way to make you right is to talk to you about it. If it makes you defensive, that’s too bad. But what’s the alternative? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2017, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kamau-bell-and-racist-five-year-olds/785729/199 "2017-05-09T18:49:17Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > But what’s the alternative? Assume that someone is not racist until they say or do something that shows they are? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2017, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kamau-bell-and-racist-five-year-olds/785729/200 "2017-05-09T19:03:51Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > “If gentiles aren’t willing to admit they are anti-semitic…” > “If heterosexuals aren’t willing to admit they are homophobic…” > “If males aren’t willing to admit they are misogynistic…” > > Don’t you see how unhelpful this sort of construction is? > > Starting with sweeping racially-based pronouncements and a presumption of guilt based on a personally formulated definition of a word is not a sensible way to start a productive conversation…it never is. > And this is just a re-worked version of original sin, we are born sick and commanded to be well, sod that. Judge me on my actions and the content of my character please. > [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Your belief that you’re not furthering racism because you have good character and lack conscious bigotry is, in 2017, a bigger problem than conscious bigotry. > > You’re wrong, and the only way to make you right is to talk to you about it. If it makes you defensive, that’s too bad. But what’s the alternative? That’s hilarious. It’s like the concept of employing any form of defense or rebuttal is actually wrong and not wrong as in factually wrong but morally wrong. Well you are part of a set that is bad because x,y,z and if you deny it that’s even worse. Lol. Noone, in their right mind, would subjugate themselves to such a ridiculous set of constraints. That’s why there is pushback on anything like that. It’s almost like the witch trials of the past. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kamau-bell-and-racist-five-year-olds/785729.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kamau-bell-and-racist-five-year-olds/785729.md?page=11)