# Kamau Bell and Racist Five Year Olds **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 2, 2017, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kamau-bell-and-racist-five-year-olds/785729 "2017-05-02T17:23:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2017, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kamau-bell-and-racist-five-year-olds/785729/121 "2017-05-04T17:47:21Z")
No problem! What did you learn from them or from googling that you didn’t know before? ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2017, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kamau-bell-and-racist-five-year-olds/785729/122 "2017-05-04T17:58:27Z")
That my imagination does not fully encompass the ways in which people can be shitty to each other. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2017, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kamau-bell-and-racist-five-year-olds/785729/123 "2017-05-04T18:29:07Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > The problem, and the reason we can’t have a productive discussion about race, is that a certain subset of people won’t accept the idea that there is any source of the problems besides white/systemic/structural racism. > > The little girl in the OP got her hair touched. Those who touched her had no racist intent, and it wasn’t because there were no other black kids in her school. But it can’t be because they haven’t been taught not to touch other people without permission. So we have to talk about systemic racism. > > Regards, > Shodan It’s your little girl. There will be reactions to her hair that are racially charged, because this is a fairly universal part of the African American experience. How “black” she chooses to wear her hair will always be taken by some as a political statement to be agreed with or objected to. There will always be people who try to touch it and who make comments that explicitly tie their reaction to her race (“So do black people wash their hair? Where to black people get their hair cut? Does all black hair feel like yours?” The list is endless). Is your real priority to make sure she sorts out exactly which people are generally socially clueless and which ones are clueless and kinda racist? Because I think that would be really far down my list. Whatever the thoughts/intentions of the people making the comments/touching my girl, I’d know that from her perception this would get lumped into a series of incidents, many of which were founded in consciousness of her race. I’d want to start now to help her develop a positive self-image toward her hair and to understand that she’s in control of it. I would not wait for the smoking gun of unambiguous racism before I started contextualizing this. And it seems to me that this is exactly what this guy did. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2017, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kamau-bell-and-racist-five-year-olds/785729/124 "2017-05-04T19:08:03Z")
Do any critics of Kamau Bell’s assertions about this experience have any problem with how he actually handled it with his daughter? If not, the worst you can say about him is that he might be thinking about it wrong, but he still handled it just fine and appears to be an attentive and thoughtful parent. ---
**Author:** ![MikeF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MikeF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeF)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2017, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kamau-bell-and-racist-five-year-olds/785729/125 "2017-05-04T19:34:32Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > You don’t have it right, and a key reason is that a person who acts in a way that perpetuates systemic racism isn’t necessarily racist. I submit that these kids touching her hair has absolutely nothing to do with perpetuating systemic racism. A result of? O.K. But perpetuating? I don’t think so. And, even if it did, you point out that it isn’t necessarily racist. It seems you and Bell disagree, at least in this case. I admit I’m pretty thick but what is the difference between “little kid racism” and identifying those kids as racist? I would define “little kid racism” as racism being perpetrated by little kids. Isn’t anyone (including kids) perpetrating racism, by definition, a racist? Is it, or is it not, racist behavior when there is no intent to imply superiority or segregate or exclude or otherwise treat differently a member of another race? If Bell had said “the behavior of those children, while innocent on their part, is the result of a history of systemic racism” I would have no problem. It seemed fairly clear to me that he viewed their actions as racist and that it should be obvious as such. Maybe that wasn’t his intent but if you’re going to make your living with language it would help to be a little clearer about what you mean. Nothing against her but the OP wasn’t _meant_ to be about the little girl or her feelings or the impact on her. It was meant to be about her father’s “little kid racism” statement. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2017, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kamau-bell-and-racist-five-year-olds/785729/126 "2017-05-04T19:36:29Z")
> [@MikeF](#): > > If Bell had said “the behavior of those children, while innocent on their part, is the result of a history of systemic racism” I would have no problem. It seemed fairly clear to me that he viewed their actions as racist and that is should be obvious as such. Maybe that wasn’t his intent but if you’re going to make your living with language it would help to be a little clearer about what you mean. The first sentence here is how I interpreted Bell’s statement. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2017, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kamau-bell-and-racist-five-year-olds/785729/127 "2017-05-04T20:04:39Z")
> [@MikeF](#): > > If Bell had said “the behavior of those children, while innocent on their part, is the result of a history of systemic racism” I would have no problem. It seemed fairly clear to me that he viewed their actions as racist and that it should be obvious as such. Maybe that wasn’t his intent but if you’re going to make your living with language it would help to be a little clearer about what you mean. I agree with many-eyed Andy: the first sentence is what I read him as saying. We’re working from a very limited quote and I don’t want to go all Talmud scholar on it, though, so I’ll just say this: 1. Given the evidence, I’m now unconvinced that categorizing it as systemic racism is correct. 2. I tend to give great deference to folks’ interpretation of their own experiences, unless there’s a reason not to. Bell wasn’t trying to make a court case here, he was talking off the cuff, so he may have left out evidence of systemic racism. 3. If he intended to say that the kids themselves were motivated by racism, I’m really not seeing it. 4. Even if he’s wrong, I don’t think he’s egregiously wrong. There are issues on which there’s a very clear wrong side (say, if you argue taht gender is fixed and immutable at birth). But this isn’t one of those. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2017, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kamau-bell-and-racist-five-year-olds/785729/128 "2017-05-04T21:23:23Z")
Has anyone considered that the racism under discussion is primarily internal? That this is the story of a little girl learning to be uncomfortable in her own skin, and a fathers wish to at least delay that? Whether or not the kids intended to “other” her, she’s experiencing through the lens of a kid who knows that she is different, and who is going to experience that viscerally. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2017, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kamau-bell-and-racist-five-year-olds/785729/129 "2017-05-04T21:23:32Z")
Identify dying and dealing with racism in society does NOT require determining whether any particular person’s action was taken with a specific and unambiguous intent to be racist. Our society is so deeply steeped in racism that intent is pretty much irrelevant. The victims of racism have to live with it 24/7. It’s time for the beneficiaries and propagators of racism to start being aware of it 24/7 and start to learn how to counteract de facto racism regardless of whether they individually have any racist intent. Racism is not just about a specific evil intent to be racist but also a failure to be anti-racist 24/7 whether consciously intentional or not. White folks benefit from racism 24/7. It’s not too much to ask them to start being aware of it 24/7. ---
**Author:** ![Hampshire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hampshire/32/4887_2.png) [@Hampshire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hampshire)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2017, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kamau-bell-and-racist-five-year-olds/785729/130 "2017-05-04T21:46:43Z")
A. Kamu Bell said: “And part of me wants to sit her down and go, Sami, this is racism.” Bell: Sami, this is racism. Sami: Thanks dad, I’ll let Tommy Smith know this too. Bell: Was he the one touching your hair? Sami: No, he’s a white kid in my class with a crew cut. They touch his hair too and he doesn’t like it either. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2017, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kamau-bell-and-racist-five-year-olds/785729/131 "2017-05-05T01:26:54Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Huh. That quote changes things, and thanks for finding it. The OP mentioned him saying the school was diverse but not black enough for him, and I took that to mean that it was diverse along axes other than black/white. If this didn’t happen because white kids at this school are unfamiliar with black kids, I’m not sure where he’s getting the idea that it’s racist from. While in the quote Bell describes his daughter’s school as “very racially mixed” and having “a lot of kids of color”, this doesn’t necessarily mean there are very many black children at this school. As best as I can tell from [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Kamau_Bell), Bell lives in the San Francisco area. I have no idea what the racial/ethnic mix is at the school Bell’s daughter attends, but while [San Francisco](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_San_Francisco) is a “minority majority” city (non-Hispanic whites make up slightly less than half the population), it’s only about 6% black. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2017, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kamau-bell-and-racist-five-year-olds/785729/132 "2017-05-05T11:27:05Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Greataxe crits. Wow, out-nerding me is enough of a feat that it ought to go on your resume. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2017, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kamau-bell-and-racist-five-year-olds/785729/133 "2017-05-05T11:47:11Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > How “black” she chooses to wear her hair will always be taken by some as a political statement to be agreed with or objected to. The people who are making this political are the adults, particularly her father. > [@](#): > > Is your real priority to make sure she sorts out exactly which people are generally socially clueless and which ones are clueless and kinda racist? Because I think that would be really far down my list. Far down mine too, but Bell apparently disagrees. He labels it “little kid racism”. Some in this thread label it systemic racism, or structural racism. > [@](#): > > I would not wait for the smoking gun of unambiguous racism before I started contextualizing this. And it seems to me that this is exactly what this guy did. What Bell did was to teach his daughter that anything that happens to her is racism. You can call it not waiting for a smoking gun. You can also call it teaching her how to play the race card. > [@even sven](#): > > Has anyone considered that the racism under discussion is primarily internal? That this is the story of a little girl learning to be uncomfortable in her own skin, and a fathers wish to at least delay that? It doesn’t appear he wants to delay it - he just wants her to label it as racism. I don’t see how that helps her be more comfortable in her own skin. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2017, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kamau-bell-and-racist-five-year-olds/785729/134 "2017-05-05T11:53:20Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > What Bell did was to teach his daughter that anything that happens to her is racism. > [@](#): > > It doesn’t appear he wants to delay it - he just wants her to label it as racism. I don’t see how that helps her be more comfortable in her own skin. Cite for this? This is what Bell said in the interview about how he handled it with his daughter: > [@](#): > > And part of me wants to sit her down and go, Sami, this is racism. That’s what you’re experiencing. But she’s not ready for that. So what I did was like I sort of swallowed hard and was like all right, Sami, if you don’t want to wear your hair out, you don’t have to wear your hair out. But just so you know, me and Melissa both said this - your hair is beautiful, we love it when it’s out, and when you’re ready to wear it out again, you can - we will - you can wear it out. So, you know, allowing her to have the agency to make her decision and then over the course of several months, she wore it down. And then one day she’s like I want to wear it - I want to wear my hair out again. What a terrible parent, right? Teaching his child agency and that her natural hair is beautiful and she can wear it any way she wants? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2017, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kamau-bell-and-racist-five-year-olds/785729/135 "2017-05-05T12:38:03Z")
On preview - never mind. If you aren’t going to read your own cites, there’s no point. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2017, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kamau-bell-and-racist-five-year-olds/785729/136 "2017-05-05T12:38:12Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > What Bell did was to teach his daughter that anything that happens to her is racism. If you summarize someone’s actions in a hyperbolic and inaccurate fashion, it’s possible to make them look foolish. Nicely done! ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2017, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kamau-bell-and-racist-five-year-olds/785729/137 "2017-05-05T12:45:40Z")
When you lose a debate, it’s also possible to post “is not!” without addressing anything, but it doesn’t make anyone else look foolish. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2017, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kamau-bell-and-racist-five-year-olds/785729/138 "2017-05-05T12:51:58Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > On preview - never mind. If you aren’t going to read your own cites, there’s no point. > > Regards, > Shodan Huh? He specifically said that he didn’t say anything about racism to his daughter. That specifically and directly refutes your assertion that he taught her “anything that happens to her is racism”. It specifically and directly refutes that “he just wants her to label it as racism”. Seriously – what specifically do you object to in the way he said he interacted with his daughter? What did he do wrong as a dad? The way he described how he acted with her sounds like absolutely wonderful parenting – I know you’re a parent… what do you object to in what he said to his daughter? ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2017, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kamau-bell-and-racist-five-year-olds/785729/139 "2017-05-05T12:53:24Z")
Part of him wants to tell her it’s racism. Part of me wants a herd of Pomeranians. But I do not want a herd of Pomeranians, nor have I acquired one. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2017, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kamau-bell-and-racist-five-year-olds/785729/140 "2017-05-05T13:02:01Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > When you lose a debate, it’s also possible to post “is not!” without addressing anything, but it doesn’t make anyone else look foolish. > > Regards, > Shodan Another fact-free post. You’re categorically incorrect, uncontroversially, inarguably wrong when you say that “What Bell did was to teach his daughter that anything that happens to her is racism.” You cannot possibly cite him doing anything of the sort. So claiming that I’ve lost the debate is laughable. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kamau-bell-and-racist-five-year-olds/785729.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kamau-bell-and-racist-five-year-olds/785729.md?page=8)