# Kanicbird reading the Quran **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 14, 2013, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-reading-the-quran/671169 "2013-10-14T00:11:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2013, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-reading-the-quran/671169/21 "2013-10-14T15:23:24Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Their God is not _called_ “Allah”, Allah is the _word for God_. Christians or Jews speaking Arabic use the word “Allah” to refer to God just as they use the word “God” in English. The Muslim God is the same God as that worshiped by the Jews and Christians, that is, the God of Abraham and thus they are collectively referred to as Abrahamic religions. All true, but I’ll hazard a guess that **kanic** ’s Q’uran is English and calls God _Allah_. Mine does. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2013, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-reading-the-quran/671169/22 "2013-10-14T15:58:05Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > There are a growing denial in Muslim circles of the rights of non-Muslims to use ‘Allah’ for ‘God’. I’d change that to ‘growing denial in Malaysian Muslim’ circles. I’m not really seeing that controversy anywhere else. Arab Christians have been using the word for millenia - indeed one of the crappy arguments those Allah-for-Muslims-only Malaysians are using is that that might be okay for non-Muslim Arabs, since they have mutually Semitic languages, but not in Malaysia where Allah is an imported word. It’s just silliness. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-reading-the-quran/671169/23 "2013-10-15T14:26:08Z")
It seems like I did chose a unfortunate starting point when I decided to understand this sacred text. But have went forth and am getting a better feel for Allah, the most merciful (as it is put so often). I was initially shocked my the message of no hope for the followers, that I do need to now modify, even though I am no where near even making a dent in the text. But I have seen that the followers are given hope, though different then the hope from God I know. The condition that they need hope from I initially saw as Allah’s condition imposed on them. I no longer see it as such, but it is the state of the human condition, the exercise of free will of some men (and spiritual beings called jinn), that seem to enslave others. And so far that has been the key, this is a message to slaves, people without hope in this life, people as far as I can tell will not be given hope in this world and that they will live out their lives as slaves, never gaining freedom while they live. The hope is if they chose to be a slave to Allah, that after death they will finally enjoy the goodness that they will be denied here and be satisfied. Some stories were modified from the biblical ones, changed enough to, so far as I can tell, to remove the hope that for a better life here and now, for as slaves they are not entitled to know of that hope. So the stories I do believe are divinely inspired as much as the bible, but tailored to what people in this condition is entitled to know. I also believe the message is from the same God, the God of Love, Jesus, Father, Mother, Daughter of God, Great Spirit, Holy Spirit, all the same. I am interested in reading on to see how this plays out, if these slaves (words of the Quran), do in fact have a hope of gaining freedom here and now, or do they have to serve out their lives as slaves first, then get their reward after death. Still much to go, but a big turn around. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-reading-the-quran/671169/24 "2013-10-15T14:29:45Z")
It would be nice if you let us know what sections you are reading, otherwise there’s not much for us to comment on. ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-reading-the-quran/671169/25 "2013-10-15T14:31:23Z")
Can you contain your ramblings about the Quran to one thread? ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-reading-the-quran/671169/26 "2013-10-15T14:31:53Z")
Why does this need a second thread? Why are you using third person in the title? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-reading-the-quran/671169/27 "2013-10-15T16:33:34Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > Why does this need a second thread? > > I felt a correction was needed as I was overly harsh to Allah. > Why are you using third person in the title? People know me here, and know I don’t give into convention , so I want to make it clear who it is. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-reading-the-quran/671169/28 "2013-10-15T16:37:05Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > It would be nice if you let us know what sections you are reading, otherwise there’s not much for us to comment on. Chapters 25-39 so far ---
**Author:** ![Idle\_Thoughts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@Idle\_Thoughts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Idle_Thoughts)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-reading-the-quran/671169/29 "2013-10-15T16:39:30Z")
I’ve merged your second thread about this with the first, which the last reply to was just yesterday. It doesn’t really need two topics, keeping it to one is fine. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-reading-the-quran/671169/30 "2013-10-15T17:02:53Z")
> [@xbcc](#): > > who’s the translator ? for proper modern english translations from 6 different translators please visit [quran.com](http://quran.com) Muhsin Khan > [@](#): > > According to quran, we (humans) are representatives of God on earth.you won’t find anything like “we are God’s own children” etc… in quran. That is sort of what I was getting so far. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-reading-the-quran/671169/31 "2013-10-15T17:08:13Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I don’t think reading the last part first is the way to go-without proper context misunderstanding is almost a certainty. I believe in divine guidance, especially when trying to understand such a sacred writing. So I am at peace with starting where I did. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-reading-the-quran/671169/32 "2013-10-15T17:27:13Z")
Then, if you don’t mind, please identify which verse or verses you are talking about when discussing topics from the Koran, so that we can follow along. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-reading-the-quran/671169/33 "2013-10-15T18:42:19Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Then, if you don’t mind, please identify which verse or verses you are talking about when discussing topics from the Koran, so that we can follow along. I can see what I can do for you. Right in the beginning of my reading, which is telling for me and why I started at this point is 25:2 (well I started at 25:1, but anyway) > [@](#): > > He to Whom belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and Who has begotten no son (children or offspring) and for Whom there is no partner in the dominion. He has created everything, and has measured it exactly according to its due measurements. My take on this: If Allah has no offspring, then there is no hope that any of the people here are is His offspring, no hope for advancement. No reason to aspire to anything more then what is stated. I see this as a statement that is intended for those who the knowledge that they are offspring of Allah must be hidden, they are not permitted to know this or even consider it. This helps dismiss the thought when it is proposed by others as a possibility because it is so clearly stated. Is it a lie or a condition that they must be in to remain slaves? I have read several sci-fi books with a similar theme (this added to help get my point across as to how I am viewing this). ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-reading-the-quran/671169/34 "2013-10-15T21:14:07Z")
The question I am coming up with Re: my above post is if we are slaves of Allah, and not children of Allah, why is there paradise awaiting slaves? What is the new status of a slave in the afterlife?, Still a slave? I guess one can say with a all mighty Allah even being a slave, when He has direct control is paradise, though that seems a bit unsatisfying. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-reading-the-quran/671169/35 "2013-10-15T23:27:23Z")
Well, Islam means “submission” for a reason. We aren’t “slaves” of God. We simply aren’t empowered. We’re tiny before his might. We can only submit to his will, as people living on a coastline can only submit to the hurricane. We aren’t slaves to the hurricane: we’re simply vastly lower on the scale of power. We still have plenty of power at a human level. We can do ill or good. We have jobs to do, and will be judged on how well we do them. There is a paradise for people who do their jobs well, and a jehannum for people who don’t. Yes, it’s vastly anti-humanist. It gives far too much secular power to priests, imams, ayatollahs, and judges. It’s very anti-democratic. The will of the people doesn’t count for a lot. Free elections do not comfortably dovetail with Islam. Free elections do not contradict Islam (and vice versa.) They just don’t go together very freely. Why is there a paradise awaiting slaves? To reward them for doing their jobs well. It makes perfect sense in an absolute top-down hierarchy. Pre-Reformation Christianity made many of the same claims. Islam is awaiting its reformation. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-reading-the-quran/671169/36 "2013-10-15T23:55:09Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > (and spiritual beings called jinn). Just in case anybody doesn’t know, Jinn and Djinn are the original forms of our word genie. I don’t think I have anything else to add to this thread right now. BTW **Trinopus** what translation of Dante would you recommend? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-reading-the-quran/671169/37 "2013-10-15T23:57:15Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Well, Islam means “submission” for a reason. We aren’t “slaves” of God. We simply aren’t empowered. We’re tiny before his might. We can only submit to his will, as people living on a coastline can only submit to the hurricane. We aren’t slaves to the hurricane: we’re simply vastly lower on the scale of power. > > We still have plenty of power at a human level. We can do ill or good. We have jobs to do, and will be judged on how well we do them. There is a paradise for people who do their jobs well, and a jehannum for people who don’t. > > Yes, it’s vastly anti-humanist. It gives far too much secular power to priests, imams, ayatollahs, and judges. It’s very anti-democratic. The will of the people doesn’t count for a lot. Free elections do not comfortably dovetail with Islam. Free elections do not contradict Islam (and vice versa.) They just don’t go together very freely. > > Why is there a paradise awaiting slaves? **To reward them for doing their jobs well. It makes perfect sense in an absolute top-down hierarchy.** Pre-Reformation Christianity made many of the same claims. Islam is awaiting its reformation. I’m picking up what you are putting down, but that statement in bold appears like a pyramid scheme, which I admit is possible to pull off in a workable fashion with a tri-omni being at the top. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-reading-the-quran/671169/38 "2013-10-15T23:59:43Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > Just in case anybody doesn’t know, Jinn and Djinn are the original forms of our word genie. I took them as angel or perhaps fallen angel (a subset of angel). But genie will certanally do. Thank you. Any difference between Djinn and Jinn? ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-reading-the-quran/671169/39 "2013-10-16T00:04:39Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I took them as angel or perhaps fallen angel (a subset of angel). But genie will certanally do. Thank you. > > Any difference between Djinn and Jinn? AFAIK, they are the same word (and are likely spelled the same in the original Arabic). There is simply disagreement on how to transliterate that word. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-reading-the-quran/671169/40 "2013-10-16T00:13:42Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > . . . BTW **Trinopus** what translation of Dante would you recommend? If you want poetic meter and rhyme, John Ciardi. But for a straight prose translation, without the effort to make it rhyme, Allen Mandelbaum. Very much the best translation I’ve ever read. (I wrote him a fan letter…and dang if he didn’t phone me to thank me! He talked for half an hour; he gave me the equivalent of a college lecture on Dante and his times! So, not only the best translation I know of, he’s a heck of a nice guy too.) Some day, I want to read the Dorothy Sayers translation, but I’m having trouble finding a copy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-reading-the-quran/671169.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-reading-the-quran/671169.md?page=3)