# Kanicbird reading the Quran **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 14, 2013, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-reading-the-quran/671169 "2013-10-14T00:11:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-reading-the-quran/671169/41 "2013-10-16T00:16:00Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I’m picking up what you are putting down, but that statement in bold appears like a pyramid scheme, which I admit is possible to pull off in a workable fashion with a tri-omni being at the top. Well, yeah. Think of the European “Divine Right of Kings.” God is at the top. Then the Pope, then the Cardinals, etc. Somewhere in there is room for an Emperor, Kings, Dukes, Barons, Earls, Counts, Sheriffs, and, oh, yeah, the poor mucky serfs. Until the implementation of democracy, civilization was a pyramid scheme. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-reading-the-quran/671169/42 "2013-10-16T13:42:42Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Well, Islam means “submission” for a reason… yes this is what I am getting very strongly, it’s about submission, which is also very telling because that is a issue that I am healing from in my personal life at this very time. And this is why I believe I am lead to read the Quran now. Looking at the [emotion wheel](http://contentinsights.co/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Plutchiks-Wheel-of-Emotion.jpg), Submission is very close to Love. It is the combination of fear and trust. The opposite contempt is also present in breaking away. > [@](#): > > We aren’t “slaves” of God. We simply aren’t empowered. We’re tiny before his might. We can only submit to his will, as people living on a coastline can only submit to the hurricane. We aren’t slaves to the hurricane: we’re simply vastly lower on the scale of power. I checked several translations and the word slave or more commonly servant is used consistently. Also compare your statement about the hurricane to the biblical account of Jesus calming the sea. Empowered vs dis-empowered. > [@](#): > > Why is there a paradise awaiting slaves? To reward them for doing their jobs well. It makes perfect sense in an absolute top-down hierarchy. Pre-Reformation Christianity made many of the same claims. Islam is awaiting its reformation. Also it is a statement of don’t expect love and kindness in this world (so don’t go a-looking for it), you must wait for the next one, love and kindness is not for you here. A deterrent to help keep someone as a slave as I am viewing it. That was also part of my own personal journey, not believing that I could have love. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-reading-the-quran/671169/43 "2013-10-16T13:49:24Z")
In 33:7 Jesus is referred to as Jesus son of Mary, which is a strange way to refer to a man. The Quran obviously could not say Jesus son of God, but I do find it interesting as I have so far seen no reference of any other as son of (mother). The people later in the Quran (ch 36) were referred to as children of Adam, taking the male, but excluding calling them children of God. Referring to Jesus in this peculiar way leaped out at me, but that may have also been because I do believe I heard of this anomaly before. I am also not to hopeful that the nephilum, son of god and son of man(kind) hybrids will be mentioned in this book. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-reading-the-quran/671169/44 "2013-10-16T14:00:32Z")
I did catch a glimmer of hope for a better life now, a redemption before death, in 33:25-27 which seems to be a pre-death bettering of status. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-reading-the-quran/671169/45 "2013-10-16T15:51:31Z")
I am finding the Quran very dis-empowering, and in a way answering the question can God create a rock too large for Him to lift - in that can God become a slave and forget he is God - this seems to be answered yes as God’s children are also God and can be made to forget that. Chapter 37, various places, goes over the story of the sacrifice of Issac by Abraham, Lot’s wife, and Jonah. The difference in biblical vs Quran is that it takes away the power of the person to appeal to God, basically takes away the ability to cry out for mercy, and place one’s faith entirely in the hands of Allah. I compare this to a very young child being told not to cry and just to trust that the needs will be met, as crying will not help. As such here is my biblical interpretation vs the Quran: For Jonah It was only Allah who decided and acted to save Jonah, in the bible Jonah cried out to God. The Quran takes away the interaction of God and his child, the bible encourages the child to cry to God. I In the story of the sacrifice of Issac, I believe, and the bible does not exclude this, that it was the cry of Issac that God head and responded to and stopped Abraham. In other words God hears our cry. The Quran has Issac outright consent to be sacrificed, negating the possibility that God listened to the cry of Issac. Lot’s wife in the Quran is shown among the destroyed in Sodom, but in the Bible Lot’s wife is made into a pillar of salt, both pillar and salt is clearly biblical defined as a good thing (I will make you a pillar in my temple - a pillar of light lead the Israelite, you are Salt of the earth). Lot’s wife’s actions is what saved the people of Sodom, while Satan destroyed the city. Lot’s wife looked back, as in compassion, and God could use her heart to save the people. The Quran’s interpretation is that man(kind) had no input. The Quran teaches one to be passive with their relation with Allah Though there is a little give in this in the next chapter and some empowerment is mentioned. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-reading-the-quran/671169/46 "2013-10-16T19:02:36Z")
Very interesting 42:46, my take is people in Hell (disbelievers) have can still count of Allah as a protector. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-reading-the-quran/671169/47 "2013-10-16T19:10:36Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Very interesting 42:46, my take is people in Hell (disbelievers) have can still count of Allah as a protector. Maybe if you actually quoted the verse you were commenting on, you would get more participation. Right now, all we can respond to is\* your interpretation\* of the verses you are talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-reading-the-quran/671169/48 "2013-10-16T20:57:21Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > If Allah has no offspring, then there is no hope that any of the people here are is His offspring, no hope for advancement. What? Why? Why should there be “no hope for advancement” just because we humans are (according to Islam) not the children of God? That we are not the children of God does not mean that we are, according to Islam, hopeless and incapable of “advancement.” In Islam, humanity has a very high status indeed, indicated (to give but two examples) by that one time God refers to Adam as his vice-regent (_khalifa_) on Earth (Sura 2:30), and, a few verses later, asks his angels to bow to Adam, rather than the other way around (Sura 2:34). > [@kanicbird](#): > > Lot’s wife in the Quran is shown among the destroyed in Sodom, but in the Bible Lot’s wife is made into a pillar of salt, both pillar and salt is clearly biblical defined as a good thing (I will make you a pillar in my temple - a pillar of light lead the Israelite, you are Salt of the earth). Lot’s wife’s actions is what saved the people of Sodom, while Satan destroyed the city. Lot’s wife looked back, as in compassion, and God could use her heart to save the people. This interpretation of the story of Lot’s wife is yours and yours alone, correct? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-reading-the-quran/671169/49 "2013-10-16T22:08:52Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Maybe if you actually quoted the verse you were commenting on, you would get more participation. Right now, all we can respond to is\* your interpretation\* of the verses you are talking about. I will aspire to do better. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-reading-the-quran/671169/50 "2013-10-16T22:16:21Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > What? Why? Why should there be “no hope for advancement” just because we humans are (according to Islam) not the children of God? That we are not the children of God does not mean that we are, according to Islam, hopeless and incapable of “advancement.” I think you have to come to terms with since everything is from Allah, any advancement due to ‘works’ is because Allah allowed it, if advancement is due to ‘faith’ is it because Allah ordained it, so your input (as a believer) is not required. And what that boils down to is if you are a slave, there is no reason for you never to not be a slave, and nothing you can do to change this. > [@](#): > > In Islam, humanity has a very high status indeed, indicated (to give but two examples) by that one time God refers to Adam as his vice-regent (_khalifa_) on Earth (Sura 2:30), and, a few verses later, asks his angels to bow to Adam, rather than the other way around (Sura 2:34). Not up to that yet, but will be available for comment then, (on edit I have heard that Satan refuses, but want to read more first before commenting) > [@](#): > > This interpretation of the story of Lot’s wife is yours and yours alone, correct? I have never seen the word pillar or salt used as a negative death sentence in the bible, nor can anyone point me to such a verse. Using that as a interpretation as the fate of Lot’s wife is not biblical. But more importantly, my definition fulfills the conditions of biblical scripture that God is good always and the scriptures can not be broken (taken by itself out of context). ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-reading-the-quran/671169/51 "2013-10-17T06:40:40Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I think you have to come to terms with since everything is from Allah, any advancement due to ‘works’ is because Allah allowed it, if advancement is due to ‘faith’ is it because Allah ordained it, so your input (as a believer) is not required. And what that boils down to is if you are a slave, there is no reason for you never to not be a slave, and nothing you can do to change this. So? It could just as well mean that, as a slave of Allah, you are supposed to struggle with all your might in your master’s cause: Play nice, do good deeds, pay the _zakāt_ (compulsory charity tax) and perhaps some _ṣadaqāt_ (additional charity) as well, be, like, _super_-nice to your parents (“… lower to them the wing of humility out of mercy and say, ‘My Lord, have mercy upon them as they brought me up [when I was] small’” - Sura 17:24), etc., etc. Right? People sometimes assume that the it’s-all-in-God’s-hands-anyway aspects of the Abrahamic religions lead to some kind of slothlike passivity among their followers - but it just isn’t true, not in Christianity and not in Islam. > [@kanicbird](#): > > I have never seen the word pillar or salt used as a negative death sentence in the bible, nor can anyone point me to such a verse. Using that as a interpretation as the fate of Lot’s wife is not biblical. > > But more importantly, my definition fulfills the conditions of biblical scripture that God is good always and the scriptures can not be broken (taken by itself out of context). OK. I don’t wanna derail the thread, so I won’t respond to this. Let’s leave the Lot story for another day. ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-reading-the-quran/671169/52 "2013-10-17T11:09:12Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I have never seen the word pillar or salt used as a negative death sentence in the bible, nor can anyone point me to such a verse. Using that as a interpretation as the fate of Lot’s wife is not biblical. From wikipedia. here are the Jewish viewpoints: > [@](#): > > In Judaism, one common view of Lot’s wife turning to salt was as punishment for disobeying the angels’ warning. By looking back at the “evil cities” she betrayed her secret longing for that way of life. She was deemed unworthy to be saved and thus turned to a pillar of salt. > > Another accepted view in the Jewish exegesis of Genesis 19:26, is that when Lot’s wife looked back, she turned to a pillar of salt upon the sight of God who was descending down to rain destruction upon Sodom and Gomorrah. > > A Jewish legend gives one reason for Lot’s wife looking back, and that was to check if her daughters, who were married to men of Sodom, were coming or not. Instead, she saw God descending in order to rain fire and brimstone upon Sodom and Gomorrah. Thus, the sight of God turned her into a pillar of salt. > > Another Jewish legend says that because Lot’s wife sinned with salt, she was punished with salt. On the night the two angels visited Lot, he requested of his wife to prepare a feast for them. Not having any salt, Lot’s wife asked of her neighbors for salt which so happened to alert them of the presence of their guests, resulting in the mob action that endangered Lot’s family. None of those are “positive” death sentences (there’s something VERY amoral about that idea to begin with). And that’s it; there are no other interpretations listed including a "good"one. > [@kanicbird](#): > > But more importantly, my definition fulfills the conditions of biblical scripture that God is good always and the scriptures can not be broken (taken by itself out of context). Yeah, I don’t really consider someone who kills a lot good. And buy a lot, I’m talking things like repeated genocide (Genesis 9 with the flood, Genesis 19 with Sodom and Gomorrah) or the fact that in the Bible, [his character kills 2,476,633 whilst the bad guy, Satan, kills only 10.](http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2006/08/who-has-killed-more-satan-or-god.html) So what you’re saying is that God always does good and killing millions is good. Right? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-reading-the-quran/671169/53 "2013-10-17T13:27:15Z")
Re: Lot’s wife - quickly Thanks for the Jewish take, interesting is there is no consensus of explanation - and none is really satisfying. Also I think it would be hard to get a loving explanation without the New Testament. The difference is God does not want blind obedience, He wants us to engage our hearts. As it is with our hearts we become His children, even standing up to angels, God listens to our hearts and will overrule them. We can see how obedience paid off with Lot, who ended up living in a cave impregnating his 2 daughters - that should indicate something went wrong. But it is blind obedience vs. listening and considering how we feel is a big difference between the books. ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-reading-the-quran/671169/54 "2013-10-17T14:09:08Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > The difference is God does not want blind obedience, He wants us to engage our hearts. Mark 16:16 \*Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. \* Seems like blind obedience to me. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-reading-the-quran/671169/55 "2013-10-17T14:19:10Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > The difference in biblical vs Quran is that it takes away the power of the person to appeal to God, basically takes away the ability to cry out for mercy, and place one’s faith entirely in the hands of Allah. > > I compare this to a very young child being told not to cry and just to trust that the needs will be met, as crying will not help. It is my understanding that all things happen according to god’s will. If you find yourself in trouble through no fault of your own, that is god’s will. So, in that situation, you are afflicted, you cry out to god; what are you asking for? For god to change his will? That’s some ego to think you can change the will of the almighty. The Quran actually makes more sense to me. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-reading-the-quran/671169/56 "2013-10-17T21:31:43Z")
Numbers 15:32-36 – the guy who is gathering firewood on the Sabbath, and is stoned to death by the congregation. Sounds like God demands blind obedience. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-reading-the-quran/671169/57 "2013-10-18T15:01:46Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > Mark 16:16 > \*Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. \* > > Seems like blind obedience to me. IMHO You are taking this out of context of the scriptures: Note: from this statement Baptism is not required as a condition of salvation. Nowhere does it say what will happen to those who believe and are not baptized. And that’s the gist of it, to be saved you must believe you are God’s child, therefor no one can condemn you and you by birthright have eternal life, as that is the only way you can bring about your own salvation. So yes you must believe. Also scripturally nor dose baptism equate to not having to spend time in hell. (Jesus believed and was baptized but died and did decent into hell). ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-reading-the-quran/671169/58 "2013-10-18T15:08:05Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > It is my understanding that all things happen according to god’s will. If you find yourself in trouble through no fault of your own, that is god’s will. > > So, in that situation, you are afflicted, you cry out to god; what are you asking for? For god to change his will? That’s some ego to think you can change the will of the almighty. > > The Quran actually makes more sense to me. Fair enough. This is my take, we are God’s children and therefore part of God’s decision, as God considered His children’s wishes, but as part of our upbringing it is our responsibility to make those wishes know, and sometimes boldly so i.e. standing up to angels. And above someone mentioned that Christianity has undergone a reformation and Islam is still awaiting theirs. Reading the books however I see very little mechanism for reformation within the context of the Quran, while many mechanism in Christianity (well the Bible). There seems to be a automatic ‘return to center’ system inherent in the Quran. That said I do believe in a all mighty God who is capable of changing text in our books and implanting the knowledge that those words were always there. Yes I believe God can and has over our history done such a thing many times, so it is very possible for God to change the text of the Quran and even include a new testament if He so chooses, and do it in a way that all of them change, and few if any people realize it has been changed. So I am forever hopeful. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-reading-the-quran/671169/59 "2013-10-18T15:08:59Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > IMHO You are taking this out of context of the scriptures. Please keep this thought in mind when talking about the Quran. You might understand the context of the Quran better if you would quit taking each verse separately and trying to see how it compares to what the Bible says. The title of this thread isn’t “Why The Bible is better than the Quran”, is it? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-reading-the-quran/671169/60 "2013-10-18T15:11:21Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Numbers 15:32-36 – the guy who is gathering firewood on the Sabbath, and is stoned to death by the congregation. > > Sounds like God demands blind obedience. Under the context of the NT, we were never meant to follow the law, as it is impossible for us to do so. The law was given for us to realize it is impossible and seek another way, that of grace, living by Love and ignore the written law. This is what I believe God wants. The law is the way of teaching that the law is something we don’t want and really it is impossible for us. So it is the breakaway from blind obedience that is the message of the NT [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-reading-the-quran/671169.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-reading-the-quran/671169.md?page=4)