# Kanicbird. Yeah, It's probably pointless, but.. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 30, 2009, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-yeah-its-probably-pointless-but/483711 "2009-01-30T14:37:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2009, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-yeah-its-probably-pointless-but/483711/121 "2009-01-31T20:30:19Z")
> [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](#): > > If you ask a stupid question, you get answers that are easy to criticize. > > And **Skald the Rhymer** seems to have made of hobby of doing this with religious questions. If you’ll read my OP in the other thread, I was asking in terms of the story. I’m more than capable of arguing strictly within the terms of a mythological universe. For instance (as I posted in GD), I take the meaning of the story as being that Yahweh is choosing to establish himself as a warrior god for the first time, which role he has not before assumed. Note that in Genesis, when Abraham is obliged to do battle to rescue Lot, he does not call upon God to assist him, but rather gathers an alliance himself. [Cite](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=14&version=9). But there are other interpretations of the Exodus story; I was rather hope someone sane, like **Polycarp** or **tomndebb** , would proffer an opinion. I don’t think it was I who moved the conversation there to a debate on theodicy. As I wrote in the OP for the other thread, I think it was better suited for IMHO, but religious threadds always end up in GD anyway. (And actually I’d say the thread was better suited for Cafe Society, as it is the same general idea as many LotR threads in which we analyze the story as if it had some historical basis.) [QUOTE=Heffalump and Roo] Skald the Rhymer > [@](#): > > Now, I think both kanicbird and my uncle are…touched…on issues like [sexual intercourse leading to a union of souls]. But they’re not making arguments that are entirely illogical (even though both arguments are idiotic). What makes the arguments idiotic if they’re not illogical? [/QUOTE] Deductive logic can manipulate statements as readily as true ones; the mere fact that a statement is logically valid (i.e., follows, from its premises) does not mean it is not stupid, for the premises may be lies. Moreover, the fact that a statement is **false** doesn’t mean it follows from its premises. Here’s an example: 1. All Memphians are murderers. 2. **Skald the Rhymer** is from Memphis. 3. **Therefore Skald the Rhymer** is a murderer. Logically valid, yet untrue. Or take 1. All people from Chattanooga, Tennessee, are assholes. 2. **Skald the Rhymer** is from Memphis, Tennessee. 3. **Skald** is an asshole. Statement 3 is arguably true, but the argument is invalid. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2009, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-yeah-its-probably-pointless-but/483711/122 "2009-01-31T21:20:26Z")
> [@Acid\_Lamp](#): > > **Originally posted by Kanicbird** in [THIS](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=503870) thread. > > You are fucking tool, and an example of everything that is insane about your fucked up religion. It is solely the existence of people like you that has retarded the advancement of humanity. I hope you choke on a wafer, or whatever stand in you use for your ritual cannibalism. I think they’re actually using people named Jesus. They have big bags of Jesus Jerky they bring out for communion. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2009, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-yeah-its-probably-pointless-but/483711/123 "2009-01-31T21:27:54Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > I think they’re actually using people named Jesus. They have big bags of Jesus Jerky they bring out for communion. hnyuk hnyuk hnyuk! ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2009, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-yeah-its-probably-pointless-but/483711/124 "2009-01-31T21:30:45Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > I think they’re actually using people named Jesus. They have big bags of Jesus Jerky they bring out for communion. If kanicbird’s god IS real, you’re definitely going to hell. But then so am I, so on the ferry ride over, you bring a six-pack & I’ll bring some burgers. Might as well have one final blowout before they start teh raping with flaming worms. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2009, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-yeah-its-probably-pointless-but/483711/125 "2009-01-31T21:47:13Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > If kanicbird’s god IS real, you’re definitely going to hell. But then so am I, so on the ferry ride over, you bring a six-pack & I’ll bring some burgers. Might as well have one final blowout before they start teh raping with flaming worms. I’ll bring the Jesus Jerky. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2009, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-yeah-its-probably-pointless-but/483711/126 "2009-01-31T22:18:10Z")
If **kanicbird** ’s god is real, everyone is going to hell, including **kanicbird.** ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2009, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-yeah-its-probably-pointless-but/483711/127 "2009-01-31T22:31:00Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > If **kanicbird** ’s god is real, everyone is going to hell, including **kanicbird.** I’m not sure where you got that one from, unless everyone is a demon. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2009, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-yeah-its-probably-pointless-but/483711/128 "2009-01-31T22:39:34Z")
Now the morning commute makes sense. ---
**Author:** ![Dostoyevsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5a626/32.png) [@Dostoyevsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dostoyevsky)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2009, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-yeah-its-probably-pointless-but/483711/129 "2009-01-31T22:46:22Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Sex does unite the 2 into one flesh[SNIP] [hijack] I was raised a fundie (of the Baptist variety) and my parents repeatedly warned me via the aforementioned logic me that if I had sex with someone demon possessed then I would become possessed too. And of course, the odds were disproportionately greater than not that anyone willing to have premarital sex was very likely just that. :shrug: It worked for a while… but with long term abstinence even demoniacs are appealing. [/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2009, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-yeah-its-probably-pointless-but/483711/130 "2009-01-31T22:51:31Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I’m not sure where you got that one from, unless everyone is a demon. You admitted in another thread that your particular brand of faith is unique to you. So maybe _you_ won’t go. > [@](#): > > I was raised a fundie (of the Baptist variety) and my parents repeatedly warned me via the aforementioned logic me that if I had sex with someone demon possessed then I would become possessed too. And of course, the odds were disproportionately greater than not that anyone willing to have premarital sex was very likely just that. > > :shrug: It worked for a while… but with long term abstinence even demoniacs are appealing. I dated a girl from Arkansas whose father was a well-known fundamentalist preacher (his church described itself as non-denominational, but they seemed to toe the Southern Baptist line pretty closely). By well-known, I mean famous enough that I read his obituary in TIME a couple of years ago. Anyway, he and her mother had taught her that sex creates a “soul tie”, and that sex with demonic people creates a tie between ones’ soul and the demon. When she found out that, 1) we were having sex, 2) that I’m not white, and 3) that I’m a demon or demon-possessed\*, I thought her head was going to asplode. Then I threw her out of my apartment for saying rather uncomplimentary things about my mother, and went back to corrupting her daughter. \*Saw a copy of _The Satanic Verses_ on my nightstand, and apparently didn’t know it was a work of fiction. ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2009, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-yeah-its-probably-pointless-but/483711/131 "2009-01-31T23:01:33Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > Well, no. My father, once he found out I was a girl, abandoned me completely, and never looked back. He’s dead now but when he was alive, he wouldn’t even know something happened to me, let alone be hurt by it. I don’t want to weigh in on the religion thing, since everyone who cares probably already knows my opinion, but I just wanted to say I’m sorry you had to experience that. It’s easy for us to think in platitudes like “Indians/Chinese/Pakistanis/whatever country don’t like to give birth to girls”, but those of us who have no direct experience with those cultures may not think about the very real pain and suffering of many millions of real people due to these so-called cultural “quirks”. It’s hard to imagine what it must feel like to be an individual who actually suffered from this phenomenon. I’m not saying that I understand your pain or that this is close to what you’ve suffered, but when my dad left for the first Iraq War, I felt a sense of confused abandonment–I was too young to understand what was going on. It was very painful for the whole family. But hearing stories like this reminds me not to throw myself a pity party, because I was one of the lucky ones. Thanks for the reminder and I hope you’ve learned how to cope with the many ramifications of your father’s decision. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2009, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-yeah-its-probably-pointless-but/483711/132 "2009-01-31T23:07:52Z")
> [@Hostile\_Dialect](#): > > I don’t want to weigh in on the religion thing, since everyone who cares probably already knows my opinion, but I just wanted to say I’m sorry you had to experience that. It’s easy for us to think in platitudes like “Indians/Chinese/Pakistanis/whatever country don’t like to give birth to girls”, but those of us who have no direct experience with those cultures may not think about the very real pain and suffering of many millions of real people due to these so-called cultural “quirks”. It’s hard to imagine what it must feel like to be an individual who actually suffered from this phenomenon. FWIW, in India, it’s actually mothers who are generally more likely to reject a daughter than fathers. That said, abortion of female offspring simply because they’re female is a horrifyingly widespread problem- so much so that it’s illegal across the country to perform prenatal diagnostics on a fetus until it’s 20 weeks old\*. \*Abortion is legal in India (and paid for by the national medical insurance program) up to 20 weeks. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2009, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-yeah-its-probably-pointless-but/483711/133 "2009-01-31T23:08:43Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > You admitted in another thread that your particular brand of faith is unique to you. So maybe _you_ won’t go. > > I dated a girl from Arkansas whose father was a well-known fundamentalist preacher (his church described itself as non-denominational, but they seemed to toe the Southern Baptist line pretty closely). By well-known, I mean famous enough that I read his obituary in TIME a couple of years ago. > > Anyway, he and her mother had taught her that sex creates a “soul tie”, and that sex with demonic people creates a tie between ones’ soul and the demon. > > When she found out that, 1) we were having sex, 2) that I’m not white, and 3) that I’m a demon or demon-possessed\*, I thought her head was going to asplode. Then I threw her out of my apartment for saying rather uncomplimentary things about my mother, and went back to corrupting her daughter. > > \*Saw a copy of _The Satanic Verses_ on my nightstand, and apparently didn’t know it was a work of fiction. Was it an Osteen? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2009, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-yeah-its-probably-pointless-but/483711/134 "2009-01-31T23:14:24Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Was it an Osteen? No. I don’t want to mention his name here, as I’m no longer on good terms with the daughter. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2009, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-yeah-its-probably-pointless-but/483711/135 "2009-01-31T23:15:08Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > No. I don’t want to mention his name here, as I’m no longer on good terms with the daughter. Fair enough. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2009, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-yeah-its-probably-pointless-but/483711/136 "2009-01-31T23:21:56Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Fair enough. Dammit, I too have to respect Really’s decision. But I still really wanna know. Btw, I’m pretty sure John Osteen pastored in Texas. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2009, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-yeah-its-probably-pointless-but/483711/137 "2009-01-31T23:43:57Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > Dammit, I too have to respect Really’s decision. But I still really wanna know. > > Btw, I’m pretty sure John Osteen pastored in Texas. Maybe, but I’d heard the Osteen boys, Joel and Van grew up in Arkansas. My wife knew Van Osteen’s kids in Phoenix. ---
**Author:** ![Knowed\_Out](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/knowed_out/32/7380_2.png) [@Knowed\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knowed_Out)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2009, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-yeah-its-probably-pointless-but/483711/138 "2009-02-01T01:23:22Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > This is just too confusing a statement. Either you believe in the God of the bible or you don’t. If you believe then he has constantly communicated with mankind and the ant metaphor is not apt. In that case God doesn’t grow up, but humans do. Well, the notion of either believing in the God of the bible or not believing is no absolute. There’s numerous denominations and sects of the major religions that differ in what the “God of the bible” is. If God does communicate with mankind, you’d think He’d have set us straight by now. I personally believe God is incapable of communicating with us. We certainly can’t communicate with ants, even though we’re superior to them. If ants have an ant god, it’s a more idealized version of themselves. The ant god certainly isn’t human. So by the same token, we’re incapable of conceiving God because He’s as far removed from us as we are from the ants. We therefore can’t communicate with Him. Why should He care? We’re just ants to Him. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2009, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-yeah-its-probably-pointless-but/483711/139 "2009-02-01T02:03:01Z")
> [@Knowed\_Out](#): > > Well, the notion of either believing in the God of the bible or not believing is no absolute. There’s numerous denominations and sects of the major religions that differ in what the “God of the bible” is. If God does communicate with mankind, you’d think He’d have set us straight by now. All denoms of Christianity believe in a ‘personal’ God and the point of prayer is to communicate with him. > [@](#): > > I personally believe God is incapable of communicating with us. We certainly can’t communicate with ants, even though we’re superior to them. If ants have an ant god, it’s a more idealized version of themselves. The ant god certainly isn’t human. Well obviously he isn’t human. But neither is God, I think the analogy is breaking down. > [@](#): > > So by the same token, we’re incapable of conceiving God because He’s as far removed from us as we are from the ants. We therefore can’t communicate with Him. Why should He care? We’re just ants to Him. Well being able or not able to communicate with God is something that’s not established. ---
**Author:** ![Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heffalump_and_roo/32/7691_2.png) [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heffalump_and_Roo)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2009, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-yeah-its-probably-pointless-but/483711/140 "2009-02-01T02:03:06Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > (And actually I’d say the thread was better suited for Cafe Society, as it is the same general idea as many LotR threads in which we analyze the story as if it had some historical basis.) Ah, OK. First, it wasn’t very clear that you were looking to analyze the story as a piece of fiction. You could have made that clearer in the OP. Second, why are you looking for believers to answer your thread. What do they have to believe in? Your thread title is: > [@](#): > > BELIEVERS: why does God act so circuitously in freeing the Hebrews from Egypt? Anyone who read the story should be able to answer. If you were analyzing _Harry Potter_, you wouldn’t be asking for only those people who believed that Dumbledore existed to answer. Third, how can you judge any answer based on a piece of fiction. If someone started a Pit thread on the answer to a piece of fiction, wouldn’t that be nonsensical? > [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Deductive logic can manipulate statements as readily as true ones; the mere fact that a statement is logically valid (i.e., follows, from its premises) does not mean it is not stupid, for the premises may be lies. Moreover, the fact that a statement is **false** doesn’t mean it follows from its premises. > > Here’s an example: > > 1. All Memphians are murderers. > 2. **Skald the Rhymer** is from Memphis. > 3. **Therefore Skald the Rhymer** is a murderer. Just to be clear, we’re back to discussing the Christian religion, not a piece of fiction as you were discussing above. It’s confusing when you flip back and forth between the two without clarifying which one you’re talking about. So if the analogy above is to the Christian religion, then premise 1 might be analogized to God exists since that’s the premise from which most of the others flow. In your analogy above, it can be shown that all Memphians are not murderers. Can you show that God does not exist? If you cannot, the analogy does not apply. IF premise 1 were true, then the logic works and the claims from that logic are not idiotic unless you’re applying illogic. > [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Logically valid, yet untrue. Or take > > 1. All people from Chattanooga, Tennessee, are assholes. > 2. **Skald the Rhymer** is from Memphis, Tennessee. > 3. **Skald** is an asshole. > > Statement 3 is arguably true, but the argument is invalid. Eh?? That’s just non-sequitur. Premise 1 and 2 are not related, so it says nothing about conclusion (?) 3. That’s not logic; it’s just 3 statements strung together. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-yeah-its-probably-pointless-but/483711.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-yeah-its-probably-pointless-but/483711.md?page=8)