# Kanicbird, you are an idiot. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 19, 2009, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-you-are-an-idiot/486555 "2009-02-19T15:53:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-you-are-an-idiot/486555/241 "2009-02-24T01:53:37Z")
> [@Q.E.D](#): > > The only content of a black hole is mass, electric charge and spin. AFAIK, all of those can be measured. Okay. Another quick question before normal **kanicbird** baiting resumes. 🙂 Has a ‘white hole’ ever been discovered? If not, does this suggest that black holes do not pour their contents into another universe or somewhere? Is it possible or likely that black holes are the same on ‘both sides’? ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-you-are-an-idiot/486555/242 "2009-02-24T02:05:05Z")
Not that we know of. It was once thought that quasars might be white holes, but these are now assumed to be active galaxies, in which a central supermassive black hole is consuming huge quantities of mass and radiating energy as the ingoing mass is compressed and superheated enough to emit everything from radio to gamma rays. As far as anyone knows, black holes are the Roach Motels of the universe: matter checks in, but it doesn’t check out. ---
**Author:** ![jovan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/0ea827/32.png) [@jovan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jovan)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-you-are-an-idiot/486555/243 "2009-02-24T02:10:35Z")
> [@Q.E.D](#): > > As far as science is concerned, no. Anything which cannot be observed–by which we mean interact with or affect us in any way–can be effectively said not to exist. Doesn’t mean it _de facto_ doesn’t exist, it simply means that it might as well not. This is as true of particle x as it is of parallel universes. Well, that’s sort of my point: you cannot establish if it exists or not, hence, _fundamentally_, you have to answer “I don’t know.” Now, _pragmatically_, you can act as though it doesn’t because its existence serves no use. (It’s not needed to explain anything that has any bearing on us.) Some may not see this as an important distinction, but you’re still left with a question that cannot be categorically answered. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-you-are-an-idiot/486555/244 "2009-02-24T02:15:12Z")
> [@jovan](#): > > …you’re still left with a question that cannot be categorically answered. Well, sure. I have no problem with such questions; science is rife with them. We don’t know what an electron is, we don’t know what happened prior to the Big Bang, we don’t know if there are really tiny curled-up dimensions beyond the three we know or if it only works out that way in our mathematical models. And we probably never will. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-you-are-an-idiot/486555/245 "2009-02-24T02:17:41Z")
> [@jovan](#): > > Well, that’s sort of my point: you cannot establish if it exists or not, hence, _fundamentally_, you have to answer “I don’t know.” Now, _pragmatically_, you can act as though it doesn’t because its existence serves no use. (It’s not needed to explain anything that has any bearing on us.) Some may not see this as an important distinction, but you’re still left with a question that cannot be categorically answered. If an adult asked you if Santa Claus or Batman existed, would you automatically answer “I don’t know?” ---
**Author:** ![LurkMeister](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3da27b/32.png) [@LurkMeister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LurkMeister)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-you-are-an-idiot/486555/246 "2009-02-24T02:35:15Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Does that mean I have to go around dressed up like Little Bo Peep? Only if you’re looking for a baaaad boy. Sorry, I couldn’t resist ---
**Author:** ![jovan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/0ea827/32.png) [@jovan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jovan)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-you-are-an-idiot/486555/247 "2009-02-24T02:36:06Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > If an adult asked you if Santa Claus or Batman existed, would you automatically answer “I don’t know?” It depends on how you define “Santa Claus” or “Batman,” of course. If “Santa Claus” is “the guy who puts the presents under every Christmas tree on Earth,” then I can say with a very high level of confidence that there is no such person. On the other hand, if you define him as a fictitious character, then I have no choice but to say that he exists as such. If you define him as a metaphysical entity, then, yes, I’d have to say “I don’t know.” If you define Santa Claus as some guy who lived several centuries ago, but whose life isn’t attested by any contemporary source, then I also have to say “I don’t know.” However, to my knowledge, Santa Claus is never defined as a metaphysical entity, and while Saint Nicholas is claimed to be a historical character, he’s only said to be the inspiration for Santa Claus. Hence, in every day conversation, I’d say that Santa Claus is a fiction, and in a scientific context, I’d say that the probability for his physical existence approaches zero. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-you-are-an-idiot/486555/248 "2009-02-24T02:41:38Z")
God is a fiction, and in a scientific context I’d say that the probability for his physical existence approaches zero. For this reason, I will spend as much time contemplating God’s existence as I do the existence of batman and Santa Claus. Fair enough? ---
**Author:** ![jovan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/0ea827/32.png) [@jovan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jovan)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-you-are-an-idiot/486555/249 "2009-02-24T02:58:09Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Fair enough? Sure. I was only pointing out that there are indeed questions that cannot be categorically answered, not now, not ever. Hence Jesus. No, not really. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-you-are-an-idiot/486555/250 "2009-02-24T03:08:53Z")
> [@jovan](#): > > Sure. > > I was only pointing out that there are indeed questions that cannot be categorically answered, not now, not ever. > > Hence Jesus. > No, not really. Maybe what you’ve pointed out is that there are some questions not worth asking? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-you-are-an-idiot/486555/251 "2009-02-24T03:13:48Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > If an adult asked you if Santa Claus or Batman existed, would you automatically answer “I don’t know?” If you mean the latter, does he look like Christian Bale? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![jovan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/0ea827/32.png) [@jovan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jovan)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-you-are-an-idiot/486555/252 "2009-02-24T03:25:20Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Maybe what you’ve pointed out is that there are some questions not worth asking? That’s a completely different problem, though, isn’t it? Some questions would be worth asking, if they could be answered, but they can’t… If A is any arbitrary computer program, it might be very, very useful to answer the question: Will A run forever, or will it eventually terminate? Unfortunately, you can only answer [“I don’t know.”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halting_problem) ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-you-are-an-idiot/486555/253 "2009-02-24T03:39:03Z")
In practice, ALL computer programs WILL terminate eventually. ---
**Author:** ![jovan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/0ea827/32.png) [@jovan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jovan)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-you-are-an-idiot/486555/254 "2009-02-24T03:55:56Z")
While this statement may be true, it’s not necessarily useful. What may be useful is a computer program that tells me with absolute certainty if another computer program, about which we know nothing, will enter an endless loop. That would be both useful and impossible. That the machine that actually runs the endless loop will eventually cease to function is of little practical use, and of no bearing on the nature of the question. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-you-are-an-idiot/486555/255 "2009-02-24T04:18:42Z")
No shit, Sherlock. Hi, **jovan** , meet humor. Humor, **jovan**. ---
**Author:** ![Savantesque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Savantesque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Savantesque)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-you-are-an-idiot/486555/256 "2009-02-24T06:01:44Z")
> [@jovan](#): > > \ > That the machine that actually runs the endless loop will eventually cease to function is of little practical use, and of no bearing on the nature of the question. I would expect knowing that a machine will fail has far more practical value than “what ifs” about infinity on a magical system. ---
**Author:** ![jovan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/0ea827/32.png) [@jovan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jovan)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-you-are-an-idiot/486555/257 "2009-02-24T06:27:23Z")
> [@Q.E.D](#): > > No shit, Sherlock. Hi, **jovan** , meet humor. Humor, **jovan**. :smack: > [@](#): > > I would expect knowing that a machine will fail has far more practical value than “what ifs” about infinity on a magical system. If I could write a program that could tell you with 100% certainty if any other program will enter an infinite loop, I’d be set for life. I could write a universal virus detector or a universal bug finder. In the real world, software fails much more frequently than hardware, and what the halting problem tells us is that there is no universal way to tell if a program will fail. Or were you kidding also? ---
**Author:** ![Savantesque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Savantesque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Savantesque)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-you-are-an-idiot/486555/258 "2009-02-24T07:15:13Z")
> [@jovan](#): > > If I could write a program that could tell you with 100% certainty if any other program will enter an infinite loop, I’d be set for life. I could write a universal virus detector or a universal bug finder. In the real world, software fails much more frequently than hardware, and what the halting problem tells us is that there is no universal way to tell if a program will fail. Or were you kidding also? I wasn’t kidding, I’m just an idiot. Perhaps. A question though, if I may: Can’t I write a virus that doesn’t depend on an infinite loop for replication? Also, since you enjoy word games: If you know nothing about this computer program, how do you know it’s a computer program? Once again, I may be an idiot, but I’m having trouble comprehending this feat as being impossible, unless we truly “know nothing” about the program in which case it’s just a nonsense argument. ---
**Author:** ![jovan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/0ea827/32.png) [@jovan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jovan)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-you-are-an-idiot/486555/259 "2009-02-24T07:37:49Z")
> [@Savantesque](#): > > A question though, if I may: Can’t I write a virus that doesn’t depend on an infinite loop for replication? The virus doesn’t need to depend on infinite loops. One of the corollaries of the halting problem is that it’s impossible to tell if a program will perform a particular task. So, there’s no way to tell if a program will replicate itself, for example. [Here’s a good explanation](http://www.claymania.com/halting-problem.html) in layman terms. > [@](#): > > Also, since you enjoy word games: If you know nothing about this computer program, how do you know it’s a computer program? Any data can be interpreted as a program because programs _are_ data. This isn’t word games, it’s a fundamental characteristic of computers. ---
**Author:** ![Savantesque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Savantesque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Savantesque)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-you-are-an-idiot/486555/260 "2009-02-24T08:03:03Z")
> [@jovan](#): > > The virus doesn’t need to depend on infinite loops. One of the corollaries of the halting problem is that it’s impossible to tell if a program will perform a particular task. So, there’s no way to tell if a program will replicate itself, for example. [Here’s a good explanation](http://www.claymania.com/halting-problem.html) in layman terms. > Any data can be interpreted as a program because programs _are_ data. This isn’t word games, it’s a fundamental characteristic of computers. Doesn’t that mean that it would be impossible to design a program that can tell you whether or not a certain data set is a program? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-you-are-an-idiot/486555.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-you-are-an-idiot/486555.md?page=14)