# Kanicbird, you are an idiot. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 19, 2009, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-you-are-an-idiot/486555 "2009-02-19T15:53:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-you-are-an-idiot/486555/41 "2009-02-19T20:13:04Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > I’m sure I don’t have to tell you about the pitfalls and shortcomings of inductive reasoning — that is, reasoning from the particular to the general. Such reasoning can lead to conclusions like “it is always dangerous to encounter a black man in an alley at night”. True; sometimes it’s merely startling. ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-you-are-an-idiot/486555/42 "2009-02-19T20:34:37Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > True; sometimes it’s merely startling. Or erotic. ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-you-are-an-idiot/486555/43 "2009-02-19T20:47:33Z")
Sometimes it’s very confusing when you only see the eyes. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-you-are-an-idiot/486555/44 "2009-02-19T21:15:58Z")
> [@Dog80](#): > > According to Terry Prattchet, the world was created in a mere instant, neither seven days, nor millions and millions of years. Of course, also according to Pratchett, the worlds are made by specialized construction crews who create them from the core out by special order. See _Strata_. ---
**Author:** ![Dog80](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6bbea6/32.png) [@Dog80](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dog80)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-you-are-an-idiot/486555/45 "2009-02-19T22:58:27Z")
Sorry, I haven’t read Strata. My info is mainly from Eric, where Rincewind comes face-to-face with the Creator and The Discworld Mapp. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-you-are-an-idiot/486555/46 "2009-02-19T23:09:25Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Science is indeed incapable of discovering the truth. What’s wrong with saying that? This shows the importance of context. When you say this, it is deep. When he says it, it is idiotic, because he doesn’t understand or appreciate how science can approach the truth or the predictive power of science. “Tell me about the rabbits” means very different things when spoken by Richard Adams’ editor and Lenny. ---
**Author:** ![Monster104](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Monster104](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monster104)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-you-are-an-idiot/486555/47 "2009-02-19T23:16:02Z")
Reading **kanicbird** ’s posts in that Ouija Board thread was highly amusing, yet utterly distressing at the same time. It’s hard to believe a thinking person could actually consider that remotely close to being reasonable debating. ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-you-are-an-idiot/486555/48 "2009-02-19T23:47:45Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > It can’t discover the truth of ANY analytic claim, of which there are practically an infinite number. It can’t discover, for example, the truth of whether 1+1=2. What you’re saying is basically right, but the example you’ve chosen is a bad one, I think, since it’s not a claim about the real world, but a claim about a mathematical system we use to model a part of it (i.e. the behaviour of indivisible quantities), and follows within that system directly from its construction. You can then, of course, ask whether or not it accurately models the natural world, and indeed, we may find instances where it does not (consider the addition of relativistic speeds), but that doesn’t impinge on the fact that within that system, 1 + 1 = 2. Also, you neglect to mention is that there are infinitely many statements that science can determine the truth of – existential claims, i.e. those of the form ‘there is at least one x’, when an x is observed. Those existential claims, plus the logical inferences drawn from them, may very well be enough to describe the entire universe – no small feat, in my eyes. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2009, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-you-are-an-idiot/486555/49 "2009-02-20T00:04:46Z")
There are two things that diminish the likelihood venting at \*\*Kanicbird \*\*will change his approach (not that you are trying to do that). First, his paradigm is essentially built around a conspiracy theory. In this conspiracy Satan and his pards are the source of all that is contrary to \*\*Kanicbird’s \*\*beliefs. All who notice any inconsistencies have had their minds twisted by Satan’s conspiracy to destroy the real Truth. Conspiracy theories are attractive to a certain personality disorder which leans toward paranoia; as such the opportunity to use logic or reason to dislodge the belief is ineffective. Whatever genetic flaw creates the paranoid syndrome is unaffected by logic, similar to the way a phobia is unaffected by the absence of a real danger. Second, \*\*Kanicbird’s \*\*belief paradigm includes credit for witnessing, and in particular witnessing in the face of adversity. Heaping scorn upon him provides him opportunity to suffer for the Great Cause, and quite literally get extra credit. I should add that paranoids are frequently highly intelligent and well spoken. They’re just stupid. (Again; I am not name-calling but just using the term in its literal sense.) ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2009, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-you-are-an-idiot/486555/50 "2009-02-20T00:15:49Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Of course, also according to Pratchett, the worlds are made by specialized construction crews who create them from the core out by special order. See _Strata_. Since the diskworld in Strata is not in the Diskworld universe, both are correct - another example of context being important. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2009, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-you-are-an-idiot/486555/51 "2009-02-20T01:24:57Z")
> [@woodstockbirdybird](#): > > Or erotic. Or camouflage. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2009, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-you-are-an-idiot/486555/52 "2009-02-20T01:25:16Z")
Can we just cut to the chase, and flat out ask what gives **kanicbird** (or **lekatt** for that matter), the unmitigated gall, arrogance and authority to speak about such things as absolute fact? Who are _they,_ and how can they be so goddamn sure they’re so absolutely right? Anyone, and that goes for _everyone_ (those faithless and with faith), who claims to have all the answers, as they do, are so full of bullshit, it’s squeezing out of their eyesockets like a Play-Doh (or should that be Plato\*) Fun Factory. \*A student of Socrates who said, “All I know is that I know nothing.” ---
**Author:** ![Oregon\_sunshine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/50afbb/32.png) [@Oregon\_sunshine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oregon_sunshine)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2009, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-you-are-an-idiot/486555/53 "2009-02-20T01:27:57Z")
Doesn’t anybody else here think that kanicbird is whooshing us all? Look at this post from the ouija thread: [QUOTE=kanicbird] It’s a intro to the occult device, once they are hooked he can use that very device to have them buy the onyx encrusted one. [/QUOTE] To me, this was the smoking gun. I’m pretty sure he’s having a fairly extensive laugh on the rest of us. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2009, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-you-are-an-idiot/486555/54 "2009-02-20T01:30:52Z")
Naw, the guy is a certified nutjob. I think that statement of his was made with a half-smile, but he still believes everything he types. ---
**Author:** ![KGS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/90ced4/32.png) [@KGS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KGS)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2009, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-you-are-an-idiot/486555/55 "2009-02-20T01:36:45Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > First, his paradigm is essentially built around a conspiracy theory. In this conspiracy Satan and his pards are the source of all that is contrary to \*\*Kanicbird’s \*\*beliefs. All who notice any inconsistencies have had their minds twisted by Satan’s conspiracy to destroy the real Truth. Damn straight. Not to mention, his mind’s been deceived by a demon masquerading as The Holy Spirit, a spiritually destructive entity which snacks on human souls the same way a Venus Flytrap devours insects, or a human being munches Cheetos. Goodness only knows how many other souls he’s attracted to that bottomless pit of mindless unreason, though I suppose on this board he can do little damage. > [@Oregon\_sunshine](#): > > Doesn’t anybody else here think that kanicbird is whooshing us all? […] I’m pretty sure he’s having a fairly extensive laugh on the rest of us. If that’s the case, that would make him a troll and therefore worthy of banning, right? (P.S. It would make sense that the followers of Christ are by nature trollish, since many of the original disciples were fishermen, eh?) ---
**Author:** ![AllWalker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/db5fbb/32.png) [@AllWalker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AllWalker)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2009, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-you-are-an-idiot/486555/56 "2009-02-20T02:04:11Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Of course, also according to Pratchett, the worlds are made by specialized construction crews who create them from the core out by special order. See _Strata_. Ban nuclear testing! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2009, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-you-are-an-idiot/486555/57 "2009-02-20T02:27:37Z")
> [@Monster104](#): > > Reading **kanicbird** ’s posts in that Ouija Board thread was highly amusing, yet utterly distressing at the same time. It’s hard to believe a thinking person could actually consider that remotely close to being reasonable debating. That’s the problem, right there. It seems to me that **Kanickbird** , sometime in his past, decided “this is the truth and all there is to know” and henceforth shut down his brain. Wheter from sheer delusion, intellectual limpness or indoctrination I couldn’t tell. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2009, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-you-are-an-idiot/486555/58 "2009-02-20T04:16:17Z")
> [@Ale](#): > > That’s the problem, right there. > > It seems to me that **Kanickbird** , sometime in his past, decided “this is the truth and all there is to know” and henceforth shut down his brain. Wheter from sheer delusion, intellectual limpness or indoctrination I couldn’t tell. The perfect definition of a closed mind. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2009, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-you-are-an-idiot/486555/59 "2009-02-20T09:42:40Z")
Why is “this is the truth and all there is to know” any more closed minded than “no, that’s not the truth and all there is to know”? > [@Voyager](#): > > This shows the importance of context. When you say this, it is deep. When he says it, it is idiotic, because he doesn’t understand or appreciate how science can approach the truth or the predictive power of science. I really haven’t encountered him, but I’m more than willing to take your word for it. Though there is much about which you and I disagree, we agree about the fundamental underpinnings of epistemology generally, and you are nothing if not honest. Still, one wonders whether this is the right course. This whole thread is people poking out their tongues and behaving like third graders on the playground tormenting the poor albino child. Can’t you approach this Kanicbird person by acknowledging first that he’s right about what he says, and then showing him the context in which he is? Must it be that everything he says is struck down, even when it’s true? > [@Half Man Half Wit](#): > > Also, you neglect to mention is that there are infinitely many statements that science can determine the truth of – existential claims, i.e. those of the form ‘there is at least one x’, when an x is observed. I think that’s overly broad. I (and many others) have observed God. Does that prove God is true? And what about optical illusions? Uncalibrated or faulty instruments? Uniqueness (one person observes a thing that happens only once)? You might invoke repeatability, but then why should it be true before everybody has observed it? Is a thing true only as a perception of conscious minds? The essential problem with empiricism is that no two people can possibly observe the same thing the same way, owing to the nature of electromagnetism and time. > [@](#): > > Those existential claims, plus the logical inferences drawn from them, may very well be enough to describe the entire universe – no small feat, in my eyes. That’s no small plus. Einstein’s relativity theories were deductively derived. They were true, given the truth of their premises, before the first scientific test was ever made. The tests were done for the purpose of falsification. ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2009, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-you-are-an-idiot/486555/60 "2009-02-20T10:34:21Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > I think that’s overly broad. I (and many others) have observed God. Does that prove God is true? And what about optical illusions? Uncalibrated or faulty instruments? Uniqueness (one person observes a thing that happens only once)? You might invoke repeatability, but then why should it be true before everybody has observed it? Is a thing true only as a perception of conscious minds? No; I think truth is completely independent of perception. Knowledge of that truth, however, necessitates it, but that’s just tautologically saying ‘nobody can know something nobody knows’. I’ve gone into this elsewhere, but what you’re essentially highlighting is the problem of credibility in a group – for the individual, empiricism is a perfectly simple and exact thing: observation decides existential truths, and errors in observation will self-correct over time (provided, of course, that he is not deluded, but then he doesn’t really have a choice but to believe that, anyway). In a group, however, matters get a little more complicated – why should I believe your empirical claims if I haven’t made the same observations? Now, in a group of rational people, this can be resolved, since if any existential claim is true, group consensus will eventually shift towards accepting that claim, once more and more of its members make the requisite observation (this may take a long time if the observation is of sufficiently low probability to be made, but the important thing here is that the group consensus cannot drift in the wrong direction in the long run, which means that eventually it will accept the truth of all true existential claims). That doesn’t mean, however, to just go with the majority vote on all issues – on the contrary, since on most questions, consensus will start out being wrong; but in the long run, it will right itself. Now, in the real world, we don’t have that singular consensus, we don’t really have just one single group, and who is and who isn’t rational alone is a question to occupy one’s lifetime, so we have to make a couple of subjective calls; to me, knowing what science (and as far as I know, science alone) is capable of, this means trusting science. (And similar calls are made in other areas of life, for instance when the court calls for the prosecution to prove the defendant’s guilt ‘beyond any reasonable doubt’; if you can trust this, I see no reason not to trust science.) > [@](#): > > That’s no small plus. Einstein’s relativity theories were deductively derived. They were true, given the truth of their premises, before the first scientific test was ever made. The tests were done for the purpose of falsification. Exactly; and had they falsified it, all his brilliant theories would merely have amount to scribbles on paper. That’s where science is needed, since deductive reasoning alone cannot tell you anything about the real world. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-you-are-an-idiot/486555.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kanicbird-you-are-an-idiot/486555.md?page=4)