# Karl Marx win's BBC's "greatest philosopher" poll. WTF? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 14, 2005, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-marx-wins-bbcs-greatest-philosopher-poll-wtf/312592 "2005-07-14T23:35:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-marx-wins-bbcs-greatest-philosopher-poll-wtf/312592/21 "2005-07-15T07:00:52Z")
> [@rfgdxm](#): > > . And why is Socrates on the list at all, and not Plato? From the article: “The remaining names on the shortlist are … Plato…” > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Important insight, but it doesn’t answer the key question: Why did so many highly educated Brits pick Marx as the most important philosopher of all time, even when they had knowledge of the others? Because the intellectual “elite” in Britain are very strongly leftist, and that is the pool that the program was drawing from. IOW the sample was biased. The people listening were already predominantly (probably exclusively) left leaning. Hardly surprising that they would rate Marx highly. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-marx-wins-bbcs-greatest-philosopher-poll-wtf/312592/22 "2005-07-15T07:05:58Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > Because the intellectual “elite” in Britain are very strongly leftist . . . Please tell us more about that, **Blake. Why** are the intellectual elite in Britain “very strongly leftist”? ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-marx-wins-bbcs-greatest-philosopher-poll-wtf/312592/23 "2005-07-15T07:20:34Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Please tell us more about that, **Blake. Why** are the intellectual elite in Britain “very strongly leftist”? Yes, I’d like to hear about this, too. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-marx-wins-bbcs-greatest-philosopher-poll-wtf/312592/24 "2005-07-15T07:47:06Z")
It’s very hard to say precisely why and I suspect it’s very complex. It’s probably to some degree the result of the university system which tends to encourage a mob mentality where same attarcts same. Bristish universities have long had a reputation as breeding grounds for leftist thought. As a result those who get ‘taken in’ tend to share the philosophy of those already in power and so ad infinitum. The same was certainly true of the BBC at leatsuntil the early 90s though apparently the effect is waining a little now. Note that I didn’t say that British intelluectuals are leftist, just that the self-proclaimed ‘elite’ tend to be leftist and they are the type catered for by that type of program. There are a great many educated and succesful people who are of course right wing but they are very rarely part of the elitist set, and certainly not well catered for by that type of program. ---
**Author:** ![Futile\_Gesture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f05b48/32.png) [@Futile\_Gesture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Futile_Gesture)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-marx-wins-bbcs-greatest-philosopher-poll-wtf/312592/25 "2005-07-15T10:30:03Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > It’s very hard to say precisely why and I suspect it’s very complex. It’s probably to some degree the result of the university system which tends to encourage a mob mentality where same attarcts same. Bristish universities have long had a reputation as breeding grounds for leftist thought. As a result those who get ‘taken in’ tend to share the philosophy of those already in power and so ad infinitum. The same was certainly true of the BBC at leatsuntil the early 90s though apparently the effect is waining a little now. Interesting how leftist philosophy works as a mob that ‘breeds’ and ‘takes in’. Kind of Borg-like. Who’d have thought that supposedly intelligent people are so easily led. Does rightest philosophy work the same way? ---
**Author:** ![Futile\_Gesture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f05b48/32.png) [@Futile\_Gesture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Futile_Gesture)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-marx-wins-bbcs-greatest-philosopher-poll-wtf/312592/26 "2005-07-15T10:31:34Z")
> [@Futile Gesture](#): > > Does rightest philosophy work the same way? **rightist**. That was _not_ a subconscious slip. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-marx-wins-bbcs-greatest-philosopher-poll-wtf/312592/27 "2005-07-15T10:52:20Z")
Popper called Marxism pseudoscience. Marx is on the level of Hubbard. Maybe the poll indicates that a plurality of BBC enthusiasts are extreme leftists. Surprise surprise. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-marx-wins-bbcs-greatest-philosopher-poll-wtf/312592/28 "2005-07-15T11:35:46Z")
Seems that the culture, philosophy and politics of Britain are generally to the left of the United States (or centred around a rather broader range, including what would be perceived in American terms as extreme left); I suppose therefore judging by USA standards, it might well appear true that the intellectual ‘elite’ leans to the left. By local standards, I think the leaning is probably far less pronounced. As convenient mental shorthand, I tend to keep in mind that ‘Liberal’ in the UK represents middle-of-the-road politics. I know the term has a somewhat different meaning in the USA, but that doesn’t stop it being a useful, quick-and-dirty measurement. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-marx-wins-bbcs-greatest-philosopher-poll-wtf/312592/29 "2005-07-15T11:36:02Z")
**rfgdxm** writes: > [@](#): > > Everything Socrates said was written down by, and presumably filtered through, Plato. Not entirely true. We also have an independent account from Xenophon, who didn’t do as catchy a set of dialogues. I’ve heard the opinion that, if we only had Xenophon’s Socrates and not Plato’s, he’df never have had as large a reputation as he does today. [http://www.utm.edu/research/iep/x/xenophon.htm](http://www.utm.edu/research/iep/x/xenophon.htm) (Scroll to bottom of page) ---
**Author:** ![matt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@matt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-marx-wins-bbcs-greatest-philosopher-poll-wtf/312592/30 "2005-07-15T11:55:41Z")
I was surprised and vaguely annoyed at this result. On the other hand, I didn’t bother to vote. There is a segment of UK society that is pro-marxist - google “socialist worker” with “UK” and you’ll find both a newspaper and political party. It wouldn’t surprise me to learn that part of this segment treated the poll like a Big Brother popularity contest. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-marx-wins-bbcs-greatest-philosopher-poll-wtf/312592/31 "2005-07-15T14:57:28Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > It’s very hard to say precisely why and I suspect it’s very complex. It’s probably to some degree the result of the university system which tends to encourage a mob mentality where same attarcts same. Bristish universities have long had a reputation as breeding grounds for leftist thought. As a result those who get ‘taken in’ tend to share the philosophy of those already in power and so ad infinitum. The same was certainly true of the BBC at leatsuntil the early 90s though apparently the effect is waining a little now. > > Note that I didn’t say that British intelluectuals are leftist, just that the self-proclaimed ‘elite’ tend to be leftist and they are the type catered for by that type of program. There are a great many educated and succesful people who are of course right wing but they are very rarely part of the elitist set, and certainly not well catered for by that type of program. I’m sorry but this is just a rant and bears no resemblance at all to what universities are like now, or were like in the last few decades. ---
**Author:** ![Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ac8455/32.png) [@Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bippy_the_Beardless)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-marx-wins-bbcs-greatest-philosopher-poll-wtf/312592/32 "2005-07-15T15:09:05Z")
A new day a new thought… It seems to me that there is a minority within UK with very socialist views. The majority non-socialists when given a list of philosophers to choose from would pick one pretty much at random (though avoiding Marx as he was a socialist extremist). The socialist minority would almost all choose Marx. It is simply that there is only one name to choose if you are very socialist, and that is Marx. If you made a poll asking which of these is the best president Eisenhower Ford Nixon Carter George Bush Senior George Bush Junior Carter might well win. But that is only because he was the only Democrat choice. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-marx-wins-bbcs-greatest-philosopher-poll-wtf/312592/33 "2005-07-15T15:14:23Z")
> [@rfgdxm](#): > > Most Americans would likely think of Jesus as the “Son of God”, and not a philosopher. Only non-Christians (a definite minority of Americans) would tend to look at Jesus as a philosopher. Actually, the current strain of evangelical protestantism that is culturally and politically dominant in the United States right now would encourage its adherents to answer “Jesus” when asked to name the greatest in almost any category. During the 2000 election campaign, George W. Bush named Jesus as his favourite philosopher. It helped cement his ties to the conservative religionist movement. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-marx-wins-bbcs-greatest-philosopher-poll-wtf/312592/34 "2005-07-15T15:26:28Z")
One lesson that all intelligent English people know: all TV and radio polls are run by idiots for idiots, and BBC polls are the most idoitic of all. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-marx-wins-bbcs-greatest-philosopher-poll-wtf/312592/35 "2005-07-15T15:54:43Z")
Hmph, what a dumb poll. I mean, everyone knows the greatest philosopher of all time was Ayn Rand. Stupid Brits… ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-marx-wins-bbcs-greatest-philosopher-poll-wtf/312592/36 "2005-07-15T16:30:17Z")
> [@](#): > > Does rightest philosophy work the same way? It depends on what you mean. Although they may differ about many things, most leftists have some common values. That is not neccessarily true on the right. The term can embrace everything from moderate liberals to Conservatives to Libertarians to Buchananites depending on how you use it. Some would include fascism, although even so fascism is still the sworn enemy of every other aspect fo the right. Primarily, it refers to a values taught and learned as children and youths, which embraces a certain sense of honor and pride and way of looking at the world not in terms of ideology, but in terms of good and evil, alliances and enemies. But that[s way oversimplistic and barely scratches the surface of one small slice of the Right. Many segments of leftism were inculcated as much in university settings as at home. Certainly, one can look back and English universities and see that several of them were breeding grounds for traitors - \*leftist \* traitors. ---
**Author:** ![rfgdxm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c0e974/32.png) [@rfgdxm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rfgdxm)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-marx-wins-bbcs-greatest-philosopher-poll-wtf/312592/37 "2005-07-15T18:02:14Z")
> [@Bippy the Beardless](#): > > A new day a new thought… > It seems to me that there is a minority within UK with very socialist views. The majority non-socialists when given a list of philosophers to choose from would pick one pretty much at random (though avoiding Marx as he was a socialist extremist). The socialist minority would almost all choose Marx. It is simply that there is only one name to choose if you are very socialist, and that is Marx. > > If you made a poll asking which of these is the best president > > Eisenhower > Ford > Nixon > Carter > George Bush Senior > George Bush Junior > > Carter might well win. But that is only because he was the only Democrat choice. This is a very good point. And the fact that Marx was on the list, even though as a pure philosopher he tends not to be that well of, would lead those being polled to think in terms of economic philosophy. ---
**Author:** ![kelly5078](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/6f9a4e/32.png) [@kelly5078](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kelly5078)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-marx-wins-bbcs-greatest-philosopher-poll-wtf/312592/38 "2005-07-15T19:04:21Z")
Seems to me like Locke ended up getting quite a bit better mileage than Marx. Maybe the Brits don’t like to think about him. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-marx-wins-bbcs-greatest-philosopher-poll-wtf/312592/39 "2005-07-15T19:18:13Z")
> [@kelly5078](#): > > Seems to me like Locke ended up getting quite a bit better mileage than Marx. Maybe the Brits don’t like to think about him. Well, but Hobbes got on the list, so classical liberalism was at least represented. And, the list only had 20 names, so it was a short list. A nasty, brutish, short list. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-marx-wins-bbcs-greatest-philosopher-poll-wtf/312592/40 "2005-07-15T19:25:33Z")
At least Hegel wasn’t on it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-marx-wins-bbcs-greatest-philosopher-poll-wtf/312592.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-marx-wins-bbcs-greatest-philosopher-poll-wtf/312592.md?page=3)