# Karl Rove - CIA leaker? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 3, 2005, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896 "2005-07-03T04:01:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2005, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/281 "2005-07-18T01:01:30Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > I also find it humorous that the left is totally enraged about this ‘huge breach of security’, and calling for Rove’s head, while not too long ago they were willing to shrug and give the benefit of the doubt to Sandy Berger when he intentionally walked out of a secure facility with hidden classified documents. Not so, depending for example where you place me on the con/lib scale. If you check back “in time”, I was among those who thought Sandy Berger should have been arrested. ---
**Author:** ![Spavined\_Gelding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@Spavined\_Gelding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spavined_Gelding)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2005, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/282 "2005-07-18T01:23:18Z")
Frank Rich at _the New York Times_tells us why this developing soap opera and general exercise in slight of hand is important. As Mr. Rich notes it is not about Niger, it is not about Ambassador Wilson, it is not even about revealing a CIA operation (methods and procedures). It is about how and why this nation got itself embroiled in the quagmire of Iraq. The administration simply cannot afford to let that question be examined. The Niger yellow cake, Joe Wilson, Novak, Rove inquiry takes us straight to the question of US involvement in Iraq and the dedication of the nations treasure, blood and reputation to that enterprise. As far as Carl Rove is concerned, the man has a record. From the beginning it has been a record of character assassination as a political tactic. Mr. Rove knows the obvious. Elections are decided by small groups of people who change sides or who fail to vote. His tactic has been to overwhelm the opponent in slander (whether true or not is irrelevant to the tactic) in the expiation that defamation will cause some people to change sides and will cause some people not to vote and that will make the difference. The tactic is dishonest, cynical and effective. I would be happy to see Rove leave the White House but I’d be deceiving myself if I thought that his departure would end the tactic of defamation or that his disciples would not carry on with his work. Rove was the successor to Lee Atwater. The next waive following Rove is likely to be even more ruthless and crooked. God help us all, and God protect the United States when that happens… ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2005, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/283 "2005-07-18T01:27:56Z")
> [@Spavined Gelding](#): > > … Carl Rove … tactic has been to overwhelm the opponent in slander (whether true or not is irrelevant to the tactic) in the expiation that defamation will cause some people to change sides and will cause some people not to vote and that will make the difference. I would refer people to effectiveness of The Big Lie in _Mein Kampf_ but then people would shout “Godwin, Godwin” at me. Screw Godwin. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2005, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/284 "2005-07-18T01:30:51Z")
> [@Spavined Gelding](#): > > As far as Carl Rove is concerned, the man has a record. From the beginning it has been a record of character assassination as a political tactic. Mr. Rove knows the obvious. Elections are decided by small groups of people who change sides or who fail to vote. His tactic has been to overwhelm the opponent in slander (whether true or not is irrelevant to the tactic) in the expiation that defamation will cause some people to change sides and will cause some people not to vote and that will make the difference. The tactic is dishonest, cynical and effective. I would be happy to see Rove leave the White House but I’d be deceiving myself if I thought that his departure would end the tactic of defamation or that his disciples would not carry on with his work. Rove was the successor to Lee Atwater. The next waive following Rove is likely to be even more ruthless and crooked. God help us all, and God protect the United States when that happens… I’ve been saying this about Rove for a long long time. Somehow, it usually gets shoved aside by more spin and “chewbacca defense” talk. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2005, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/285 "2005-07-18T01:41:19Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > Theft of what? I haven’t heard this. Previously, the USG has used a theft law to punish leakers. And there is a precedent from this Administration no less. [Bush’s Unofficial Official Secrets Act](http://writ.news.findlaw.com/dean/20030926.html) …in 1971 the Nixon Justice Department … tried to invoke the [theft statute](http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/ts_search.pl?title=18&sec=641)… …the government charged agents of the Drug Enforcement Agency (DEA) with using DEA information to set up a drug operation of their own. ``` ... the Reagan Justice Department saw fit to ... invoke the 1917 Espionage Act and the general theft statute to prosecute a leak of government information. ...the government procured a conviction under both statutes. The government argued the case came within the theft statute because it reaches the unlawful disposition of "any record ... or thing of value" of the United States. The government argued that even intangible information was a "thing of value," and the federal district and appellate courts agreed. ...[the Fourth Circuit] reiterated that information could be a "thing of value" that could be stolen, and held - invoking the 1971 drug case precedent - that it ... was applicable. **Attorney General John Ashcroft** is making good on his word to aggressively prosecute leaks... ...Jonathan Randal [sic], an intelligence research specialist ...of the DEA. ...the London Times ... had DEA documents showing that [Lord Michael Ashcroft (no relation)] was index-numbered on the DEA files, a measure that, it said, is taken only when serious suspicions exist. ...Randal [sic] had leaked [the DEA documents] to a ... journalist who was investigating Lord Ashcroft... [U.S. Attorney in Atlanta, William Duffey Jr.] ...confronted Randal [sic] with a twenty-count indictment. **Count One [was] based on the general theft statute - with information, once again, alleged to be the "thing of value" stolen. ``` \*\* For sentencing purposes… the value of the information … was up to $70,000… ``` **The information was not classified. It did not compromise any investigator, investigation, or investigative method.** ``` It Appears That Karl Rove Is In Serious Trouble [United States District Court Judge Richard Story said at Randel’s sentencing] …that he [Randel] surely must have appreciated the risks in leaking DEA information. **"Anything that would affect the security of officers and of the operations of the agency would be of tremendous concern, I think, to any law-abiding citizen in this country.**" Judge Story acknowledged that **Randel’s leak did not appear to put lives at risk, nor to jeopardize any DEA investigations. But he also pointed out that Randel "could not have completely and fully known that in the position that [he] held."** [Judge Story said] **"for any person with the agency to take it upon himself to leak information poses a tremendous risk; and that’s what, to me, makes this a particularly serious offense.**" United States Code TITLE 18 - CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE PART I - CRIMES CHAPTER 31 - EMBEZZLEMENT AND THEFT [Section 641. Public money, property or records](http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/ts_search.pl?title=18&sec=641) ``` Whoever embezzles, steals, purloins, or knowingly converts to his use or the use of another, or without authority, sells, conveys or disposes of any record, voucher, money, or thing of value of the United States or of any department or agency thereof, or any property made or being made under contract for the United States or any department or agency thereof; or Whoever receives, conceals, or retains the same with intent to convert it to his use or gain, knowing it to have been embezzled, stolen, purloined or converted - Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; but if the value of such property does not exceed the sum of $1,000, he shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than one year, or both. The word ''value'' means face, par, or market value, or cost price, either wholesale or retail, whichever is greater. ``` ---
**Author:** ![Stephe96](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Stephe96](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stephe96)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2005, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/286 "2005-07-18T01:58:23Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > Previously, the USG has used a theft law to punish leakers. And there is a precedent from this Administration no less. > > [Bush’s Unofficial Official Secrets Act](http://writ.news.findlaw.com/dean/20030926.html) > …in 1971 the Nixon Justice Department … tried to invoke the [theft statute](http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/ts_search.pl?title=18&sec=641)… …the government charged agents of the Drug Enforcement Agency (DEA) with using DEA information to set up a drug operation of their own. > > ``` > ... the Reagan Justice Department saw fit to ... invoke the 1917 Espionage Act and the general theft statute to prosecute a leak of government information. ...the government procured a conviction under both statutes. > > The government argued the case came within the theft statute because it reaches the unlawful disposition of "any record ... or thing of value" of the United States. The government argued that even intangible information was a "thing of value," and the federal district and appellate courts agreed. > > ...[the Fourth Circuit] reiterated that information could be a "thing of value" that could be stolen, and held - invoking the 1971 drug case precedent - that it ... was applicable. > > **Attorney General John Ashcroft** is making good on his word to aggressively prosecute leaks... > > ...Jonathan Randal [sic], an intelligence research specialist ...of the DEA. > > ...the London Times ... had DEA documents showing that [Lord Michael Ashcroft (no relation)] was index-numbered on the DEA files, a measure that, it said, is taken only when serious suspicions exist. > > ...Randal [sic] had leaked [the DEA documents] to a ... journalist who was investigating Lord Ashcroft... > [U.S. Attorney in Atlanta, William Duffey Jr.] ...confronted Randal [sic] with a twenty-count indictment. > **Count One [was] based on the general theft statute - with information, once again, alleged to be the "thing of value" stolen. > > ``` > > \*\* > For sentencing purposes… the value of the information … was up to $70,000… > > ``` > **The information was not classified. It did not compromise any investigator, investigation, or investigative method.** > > ``` > > It Appears That Karl Rove Is In Serious Trouble > [United States District Court Judge Richard Story said at Randel’s sentencing] …that he [Randel] surely must have appreciated the risks in leaking DEA information. **"Anything that would affect the security of officers and of the operations of the agency would be of tremendous concern, I think, to any law-abiding citizen in this country.**" > > Judge Story acknowledged that **Randel’s leak did not appear to put lives at risk, nor to jeopardize any DEA investigations. But he also pointed out that Randel "could not have completely and fully known that in the position that [he] held."** > > [Judge Story said] **"for any person with the agency to take it upon himself to leak information poses a tremendous risk; and that’s what, to me, makes this a particularly serious offense.**" > > United States Code > TITLE 18 - CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE > PART I - CRIMES > CHAPTER 31 - EMBEZZLEMENT AND THEFT > [Section 641. Public money, property or records](http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/ts_search.pl?title=18&sec=641) > > ``` > Whoever embezzles, steals, purloins, or knowingly converts to his use or the use of another, or without authority, sells, conveys or disposes of any record, voucher, money, or thing of value of the United States or of any department or agency thereof, or any property made or being made under contract for the United States or any department or agency thereof; or > Whoever receives, conceals, or retains the same with intent to convert it to his use or gain, knowing it to have been embezzled, stolen, purloined or converted - > Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; but if the value of such property does not exceed the sum of $1,000, he shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than one year, or both. > The word ''value'' means face, par, or market value, or cost price, either wholesale or retail, whichever is greater. > > ``` How did Sandy Burglar manage to skate away with such a slap on the wrist? Technically, we have no idea the ‘value’ of what he stole from the US government…he admits he went home and destroyed it. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2005, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/287 "2005-07-18T02:11:34Z")
> [@Spavined Gelding](#): > > As far as Carl Rove is concerned, the man has a record. From the beginning it has been a record of character assassination as a political tactic. Mr. Rove knows the obvious. Elections are decided by small groups of people who change sides or who fail to vote. His tactic has been to overwhelm the opponent in slander (whether true or not is irrelevant to the tactic) in the expiation that defamation will cause some people to change sides and will cause some people not to vote and that will make the difference. The tactic is dishonest, cynical and effective. I would be happy to see Rove leave the White House but I’d be deceiving myself if I thought that his departure would end the tactic of defamation or that his disciples would not carry on with his work. Rove was the successor to Lee Atwater. The next waive following Rove is likely to be even more ruthless and crooked. God help us all, and God protect the United States when that happens… I am completely in agreement with you about Rove – the man is, quite simply, the greatest danger to democracy in America. And as you point out, Rove is an incremental increase in viciousness wrt his predecessor Lee Atwater, and his successors are likely to be an incremental increase in viciousness to him. Still, I think putting Rove in jail for a time – hopefully, a very long time – will give his successors pause to think before they start pulling the kind of shit Rove has been pulling. These political thugs aren’t afraid of much, but I think they’d be afraid of prison, because most of them have real purty mouths and are not likely to live well in prison. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2005, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/288 "2005-07-18T02:11:59Z")
> [@Stephe96](#): > > How did Sandy Burglar manage to skate away with such a slap on the wrist? Technically, we have no idea the ‘value’ of what he stole from the US government…he admits he went home and destroyed it. Which has no bearing on the outcome of the Rove case, right? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2005, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/289 "2005-07-18T02:13:23Z")
> [@Stephe96](#): > > How did Sandy Burglar manage to skate away with such a slap on the wrist? Technically, we have no idea the ‘value’ of what he stole from the US government…he admits he went home and destroyed it. Et tu, quoque? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2005, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/290 "2005-07-18T02:40:27Z")
> [@Stephe96](#): > > How did Sandy Burglar manage to skate away with such a slap on the wrist? Technically, we have no idea the ‘value’ of what he stole from the US government…he admits he went home and destroyed it. It’s can’t be too hard to find out, as the documents he made off with were copies. The originals are still there. Not that this has anything at all to do with Rove. I believe Berger pleaded guilty to whatever he was charged with as well. By a remarkable coincidence this also has nothing to do with Rove. ---
**Author:** ![Stephe96](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Stephe96](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stephe96)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2005, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/291 "2005-07-18T02:44:52Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > IStill, I think putting Rove in jail for a time – hopefully, a very long time – will give his successors pause to think before they start pulling the kind of shit Rove has been pulling. . You want to put an American citizen who hasn’t been charged with a crime in jail for a “very long time?” And you think _Rove_ is a danger to democracy? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2005, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/292 "2005-07-18T02:50:22Z")
> [@The Tooth](#): > > It’s can’t be too hard to find out, as the documents he made off with were copies. The originals are still there. > > Not that this has anything at all to do with Rove. > > I believe Berger pleaded guilty to whatever he was charged with as well. By a remarkable coincidence this also has nothing to do with Rove. Although bringing up Sandy Berger (which the desperate folks of the right have done at least three times here thus far) is clearly the lamest type of dodge, and although most everyone is in agreement that Sandy Berger was in the wrong, a crucial difference does exist - Sandy Berger leaked no classified information to anyone. Sandy Berger did not reveal the identity of an undercover agent and her cover employer. Sandy Berger did not engage in a pathetic and vindictive attack on someone who was simply telling the truth. Karl Rove did all of these things. ---
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2005, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/293 "2005-07-18T02:54:13Z")
Is Sandy Berger the new version of Clinton’s blowjob? Sure seems that way. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2005, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/294 "2005-07-18T03:08:13Z")
[Number Three House Republican Admits Plame Was Under Cover](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/07/17/ftn/main709608.shtml): > [@](#): > > Roy Blunt of Missouri:SCHIEFFER: Well, has Karl Rove done anything wrong, in your view? > > Rep. BLUNT: You know, that’s what the special prosecutor is looking at this will determine. Again, I think we’re rushing to conclusions before–when we really actually assign somebody to find out the facts and find those conclusions. It does look like to me–and I’m not a lawyer, either, so neither the ambassador nor I are guilty of that one thing. It does look to me, from looking at the law, that the law may not apply here. That’s what the prosecutor is supposed to decide. **It certainly wouldn’t be the first time that the CIA might have been overzealous in sort of maintaining the kind of top-secret definition on things longer than they needed to.** Next week, Blunt campaigns for the release of the Reagan documents? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2005, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/295 "2005-07-18T03:39:37Z")
The Bushiviks will release the Reagan papers when you pry them from their cold, dead hands. There are national security issues involved, Osama was a Sandanista, the papers have been the victims of a dreadful microfilming accident, the whole 8,000 lbs, nothing to see here, move along, quit asking so many questions, look! a shiny missing white woman!.. ---
**Author:** ![Stephe96](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Stephe96](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stephe96)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2005, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/296 "2005-07-18T03:54:20Z")
> [@Hentor the Barbarian](#): > > Sandy Berger did not reveal the identity of an undercover agent and her cover employer. Sandy Berger did not engage in a pathetic and vindictive attack on someone who was simply telling the truth. > Karl Rove did all of these things. Allegedly. Actually, not even that…he’s yet to be charged with a thing. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2005, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/297 "2005-07-18T03:58:11Z")
> [@Stephe96](#): > > You want to put an American citizen who hasn’t been charged with a crime in jail for a “very long time?” And you think _Rove_ is a danger to democracy? I’d like to see him tried and found guilty by a jury of his peers first, which will necessitate a certain amount of sewer dredging, but that’s the price you pay for democracy sometimes. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2005, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/298 "2005-07-18T04:06:54Z")
> [@Stephe96](#): > > How did Sandy Burglar manage to skate away with such a slap on the wrist? Technically, we have no idea the ‘value’ of what he stole from the US government…he admits he went home and destroyed it. OK, Berger should have gotten life. Now can we get back to Rove? ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2005, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/299 "2005-07-18T04:29:15Z")
Remember this from _way_ back last week? [Rove said he learned operative’s name from media](http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20050716/1003925.asp) > [@](#): > > Chief presidential adviser Karl Rove testified to a grand jury that he talked with two journalists before they divulged the identity of an undercover CIA officer but that he originally learned about the operative from the news media and not government sources, according to a person briefed on the testimony. > The person, who works in the legal profession and spoke only on condition of anonymity because of grand jury secrecy, told The Associated Press that Rove testified last year that he remembers specifically being told by columnist Robert Novak that Valerie Plame, the wife of a harsh Iraq war critic, worked for the CIA. Well that story is no longer operative. The NEW story goes like this: > [@](#): > > A lawyer familiar with Rove’s grand jury testimony said Sunday that Rove learned about the CIA officer **either from the media or from someone in government** who said the information came from a journalist. The lawyer spoke on condition of anonymity because the federal investigation is continuing. [AP, Sunday evening](http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/national/AP-CIA-Leak-Investigation.html?ei=5094&en=2f91db63e27c6efe&hp=&ex=1121659200&partner=homepage&pagewanted=print) Either the press told Rove, or someone in government told Rove. It sounds like someone has cracked who wasn’t supposed to crack, or maybe the web of lies is just getting too complicated to manage. -If there _is_ a web of lies. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2005, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/300 "2005-07-18T04:41:50Z")
> [@Stephe96](#): > > You want to put an American citizen who hasn’t been charged with a crime in jail for a “very long time?” And you think _Rove_ is a danger to democracy? Jose Padilla? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896.md?page=16)