# Karl Rove - CIA leaker? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 3, 2005, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896 "2005-07-03T04:01:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/361 "2005-07-19T06:40:26Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > . . . but Bush is quite shrewd and is very bright _tactically_. He may be blind to the fact that his path will take us over a cliff, but he will be very good at surveying the roads and plotting the path that will take us to the cliff’s edge in the fastest vehicle available. Just what makes you think **Bush** will be doing (or has been doing, or has ever done at any stage of his political career) any of that surveying and plotting? If he had to make any tactical decisions without Rove and Cheney at his elbow . . . ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/362 "2005-07-19T06:42:50Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I’m just saying- if he managed to overturn the 22nd Amendment, I think people would stop underestimating his intelligence. :dubious: If Bush “managed to overturn the 22nd Amendment,” I would be tempted to underestimate his **involvement!** ---
**Author:** ![PETERFI](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/2bfe46/32.png) [@PETERFI](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PETERFI)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/363 "2005-07-19T07:44:10Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > :dubious: If Bush “managed to overturn the 22nd Amendment,” I would be tempted to underestimate his **involvement!** If he managed to do that I’d say a Hillary Jimmy Carter ticket would be hard to stop given the great respect that Carter has garnered since leaving office. If something happened to Carter due to his age, Hillary would be free to appoint Bill VP, or run Bill 8 years later… 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Twin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/85f322/32.png) [@Twin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Twin)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/364 "2005-07-19T12:29:39Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > As regards goalposts, and the impermanence of location > > [http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=949360](http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=949360) > Quote: > …“It’s best people wait until the investigation is complete before you jump to conclusions. I don’t know all the facts. I want to know all the facts,” Bush said. “I would like this to end as quickly as possible. **If someone committed a crime** , they will no longer work in my administration.”… > (Emphasis added with increasing revulsion…) > > In a related development, The President advised that no one who lies to the American people should be permitted to retain public office unless a Presidential Finding of “King’s X” has been invoked… Goalposts still firmly in place (despite the best efforts of the press). From Bush’s Sept. 2003 statement: “If there is a leak out of my administration, I want to know who it is. **And if the person has violated law, the person will be taken care of.** ” ---
**Author:** ![Stephe96](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Stephe96](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stephe96)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/365 "2005-07-19T12:54:06Z")
> [@The Peter Files](#): > > If he managed to do that I’d say a Hillary Jimmy Carter ticket would be hard to stop given the great respect that Carter has garnered since leaving office. If something happened to Carter due to his age, Hillary would be free to appoint Bill VP, or run Bill 8 years later… > > 😃 I believe this is incorrect. Maybe you’re kidding but as I understand nobody can be nominated for VP who is not eligible to become president. So Bubba would be out. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/366 "2005-07-19T12:59:18Z")
> [@Twin](#): > > Goalposts still firmly in place (despite the best efforts of the press). > > From Bush’s Sept. 2003 statement: Very selective editing there. Goalposts shifted, despite the best efforts of, well, you:[Link](http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2005/07/19/bush_seems_to_shift_on_his_grounds_for_dismissal/) > [@](#): > > ''If there is a leak out of my administration, I want to know who it is. And if that person has violated the law, the person will be taken care of," Bush said at a campaign stop in Chicago in October 2003. McClellan, speaking to reporters just before the campaign appearance, said, ''If anyone in this administration was involved in it, they would no longer be in this administration." > > Bush, asked directly in June 2004 if he would dismiss someone who leaked the agent’s name, responded: ''Yes." ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/367 "2005-07-19T13:56:42Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Goalposts shifted Indeed. From [this](http://inauguration.belointeractive.com/generalstories/268749_bi_swearingin22.html): > [@](#): > > we must remember the high standards that come with high office. This begins with careful adherence to the rules. I expect every member of this administration to stay well within the boundaries that define legal and ethical conduct. > … > we must remember that high standards of conduct involve not only obeying the law, but showing civility. As we go about our work there is no excuse for arrogance, and never a reason for disrespect toward others. to the point where it’s now newsworthy when the president says that convicted administration officials will not be allowed to telecommute from their jail cells. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/368 "2005-07-19T14:18:25Z")
Thanks to Og that he ordained a President who would restore honor and dignity to the White House. Kinda makes one nostalgic for Blowjobgate, don’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/369 "2005-07-19T14:53:55Z")
> [@The Peter Files](#): > > If he managed to do that I’d say a Hillary Jimmy Carter ticket would be hard to stop given the great respect that Carter has garnered since leaving office. If something happened to Carter due to his age, Hillary would be free to appoint Bill VP, or run Bill 8 years later… > > 😃 What would it have to do with Carter? Carter served only one term as president. He’s eligible _now_ to run for and serve a second term. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/370 "2005-07-19T14:56:02Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Y’know, this is the attitude that helped him win two presidential elections. Bush is intellectually lazy, in that once he gets an idea in his head, he is always convinced he is right (or that God ordered him to do it), and he will not pause to consider other views or look for other input, but Bush is quite shrewd and is very bright _tactically_. He may be blind to the fact that his path will take us over a cliff, but he will be very good at surveying the roads and plotting the path that will take us to the cliff’s edge in the fastest vehicle available. Now that’s reassuring! :eek: ---
**Author:** ![plnnr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@plnnr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/plnnr)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/371 "2005-07-19T15:59:38Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Or overestimating their own. 🙂 You beat me to it. ---
**Author:** ![Twin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/85f322/32.png) [@Twin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Twin)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/372 "2005-07-19T16:11:24Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Very selective editing there. Goalposts shifted, despite the best efforts of, well, you:[Link](http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2005/07/19/bush_seems_to_shift_on_his_grounds_for_dismissal/) Wrong. In June 2004, a reporter asked Bush if he still stood by a pledge he had not previously made: to fire anyone who was involved with the leak. This was a mischaracterization of the previous statement made by the president in 2003 which I have already posted. If someone was involved in the leak, and they have violated the law, then they will be removed. That position has not changed. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/373 "2005-07-19T16:15:59Z")
> [@Twin](#): > > Wrong. In June 2004, a reporter asked Bush if he still stood by a pledge he had not previously made: to fire anyone who was involved with the leak. This was a mischaracterization of the previous statement made by the president in 2003 which I have already posted. If someone was involved in the leak, and they have violated the law, then they will be removed. That position has not changed. Then why did he say “Yes” when he was asked that question? Which position is operative? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/374 "2005-07-19T16:20:36Z")
More bad news for those carrying the water here: Apparently the memo about Plame’s status that was circulated on Air Force One, and is emerging as central to the matter, clearly indicated that the information was classified and not to be released. Reportedly the Wall Street Journal has an article on the matter, reproduced in part at [Atrios](http://atrios.blogspot.com/). News that the memo was marked for its sensitivity emerged as President Bush yesterday appeared to backtrack from his 2004 pledge to fire any member of his staff involved in the leaking of the CIA agent’s name. In a news conference yesterday that followed disclosures that his top strategist, Karl Rove, had discussed Ms. Wilson’s CIA employment with two reporters, Mr. Bush adopted a different formulation, specifying criminality as the standard for firing. The memo’s details are significant because they will make it harder for officials who saw the document to claim that they didn’t realize the identity of the CIA officer was a sensitive matter. Patrick Fitzgerald, the special prosecutor, may also be looking at whether other crimes – such as perjury, obstruction of justice or leaking classified information – were committed. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/375 "2005-07-19T16:21:00Z")
More bad news for those carrying the water here: Apparently the memo about Plame’s status that was circulated on Air Force One, and is emerging as central to the matter, clearly indicated that the information was classified and not to be released. Reportedly the Wall Street Journal has an article on the matter, reproduced in part at [Atrios](http://atrios.blogspot.com/). > [@](#): > > News that the memo was marked for its sensitivity emerged as President Bush yesterday appeared to backtrack from his 2004 pledge to fire any member of his staff involved in the leaking of the CIA agent’s name. In a news conference yesterday that followed disclosures that his top strategist, Karl Rove, had discussed Ms. Wilson’s CIA employment with two reporters, Mr. Bush adopted a different formulation, specifying criminality as the standard for firing. > > The memo’s details are significant because they will make it harder for officials who saw the document to claim that they didn’t realize the identity of the CIA officer was a sensitive matter. Patrick Fitzgerald, the special prosecutor, may also be looking at whether other crimes – such as perjury, obstruction of justice or leaking classified information – were committed. ---
**Author:** ![Twin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/85f322/32.png) [@Twin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Twin)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/376 "2005-07-19T16:34:58Z")
> [@Hentor the Barbarian](#): > > Then why did he say “Yes” when he was asked that question? Which position is operative? Not sure why he answered “Yes” to the question. I can only assume the president understood the question as making sure he still stood by his original statement and that he did not catch the subtle rewording of his statement that he made 9 months earlier. I would have to say the president’s original position from 2003 is the one that is still operative, not that I am entirely happy with that position (“It is OK unless it was a crime.”) ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/377 "2005-07-19T16:38:41Z")
> [@Twin](#): > > I would have to say the president’s original position from 2003 is the one that is still operative, not that I am entirely happy with that position (“It is OK unless it was a crime.”) So he was for firing before he was against it? ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/378 "2005-07-19T16:39:42Z")
This thread had better be hurried along to a conclusion. GW might announce a Supreme Court nomination this afternoon and _l’affaire_ Rove will go to page 19. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/379 "2005-07-19T16:46:27Z")
> [@Hentor the Barbarian](#): > > So he was for firing before he was against it? I’m told that it’s all a vast left-wing conspiracy. > [@David Simmons](#): > > This thread had better be hurried along to a conclusion. GW might announce a Supreme Court nomination this afternoon and l’affaire Rove will go to page 19. There’s been some speculation that Bush will name a SC nominee this week for precisely that reason, to get Rove off the front pages. It had been signaled by the WH that someone would be named a month from now, but the current rumor is that it’s been moved up. Desperate times, and all that. ---
**Author:** ![Twin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/85f322/32.png) [@Twin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Twin)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/380 "2005-07-19T16:50:13Z")
> [@Hentor the Barbarian](#): > > So he was for firing before he was against it? I don’t read it that way. I read it as he was for firing if a crime was violated in 2003. Then in 2004, his answer was viewed as saying that if anyone was involved (no mention of a crime) then they would be fired - which moved the goalposts. He issued a clarifying comment this week restating his intention to fire anyone if a crime was violated. This led to the outcry that the goalposts had been moved. I could be wrong, but that is how I see it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896.md?page=20)