# Karl Rove - CIA leaker? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 3, 2005, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896 "2005-07-03T04:01:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![Atticus\_Finch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Atticus\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atticus_Finch)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2005, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/421 "2005-07-21T05:43:28Z")
In light of the _Washington Post_ article **elucidator** cites, and presuming for the sake of argument that the Plame info was gleaned from the memo, let’s have another look at the relevant section of the _Intelligence Identities Protection Act 1982_, s 421 (a): > [@](#): > > Whoever, having or having had authorized access to classified information that identifies a covert agent, intentionally discloses any > information identifying such covert agent to any individual not authorized to receive classified information, knowing that the information disclosed so identifies such covert agent and that the United States is taking affirmative measures to conceal such covert agent’s intelligence relationship to the United States, shall be fined not more than $50,000 or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both. So these are the elements: - The info must be **classified**. Check. - The info must **identify an agent**. Check. - The discloser must have / have had **authorized access**. Unclear. - The info must be **disclosed**. Check. - The info must be **intentionally** disclosed. Check. - The discloser must **know that the info identifies the agent**. Check. - The US must be taking measures to **conceal the person’s status**. Check. - The discloser must **know of these efforts to conceal**. Check. As I see it, if Rove gleaned the Plame info from the memo, or if someone else got it from the memo and told Rove, all that remains is whether Rove had authorized access to this information. ---
**Author:** ![Atticus\_Finch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Atticus\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atticus_Finch)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2005, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/422 "2005-07-21T05:46:22Z")
> [@Atticus Finch](#): > > …all that remains is whether Rove had authorized access to this information. Correction: “…all that remains is whether the reader of the memo had authorized access to this information.” ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2005, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/423 "2005-07-21T05:47:29Z")
> [@Atticus Finch](#): > > As I see it, if Rove gleaned the Plame info from the memo, or if someone else got it from the memo and told Rove, all that remains is whether Rove had authorized access to this information. Or if that other person had authorized access. I mean, they did disclose it to him, perhaps with a purpose. ---
**Author:** ![mack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b19c9b/32.png) [@mack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mack)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2005, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/424 "2005-07-21T11:42:42Z")
Some questions: One defense of Rove up to this point has been along the lines of “A reporter told _me_, not the other way around”. If a reporter did come to him with Plame’s classified identity, shouldn’t it be Rove’s duty to either deny Plame’s status, tell the reporter that the information is classified, or if he’s not sure, go find out and get back to the reporter? Does the fact that a reporter knew Plame’s status - but hadn’t published it yet - mean that the information is technically out in the open and thus Rove is somehow protected from prosecution? Can Rove simply shrug his shoulders, say “hey, _I_ didn’t know” and get out of it? That seems too easy. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2005, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/425 "2005-07-21T12:44:12Z")
> [@mack](#): > > Some questions: One defense of Rove up to this point has been along the lines of “A reporter told _me_, not the other way around”. If a reporter did come to him with Plame’s classified identity, shouldn’t it be Rove’s duty to either deny Plame’s status, tell the reporter that the information is classified, or if he’s not sure, go find out and get back to the reporter? > > Does the fact that a reporter knew Plame’s status - but hadn’t published it yet - mean that the information is technically out in the open and thus Rove is somehow protected from prosecution? Can Rove simply shrug his shoulders, say “hey, _I_ didn’t know” and get out of it? That seems too easy. This has been covered. Rove should have played dumb - neither comfirm nor deny. Then he should have reported it immediately to the CIA and / or the FBI. If information is classified, it remains classified, even after it is compromised. ---
**Author:** ![Mal\_Adroit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df788c/32.png) [@Mal\_Adroit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mal_Adroit)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2005, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/426 "2005-07-21T13:06:20Z")
> [@mack](#): > > Does the fact that a reporter knew Plame’s status - but hadn’t published it yet - mean that the information is technically out in the open and thus Rove is somehow protected from prosecution? Fark, no. If he even remotely understood and/or gave a crap about the implications of what he was doing, he woulda zipped his bulbous lips. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2005, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/427 "2005-07-21T13:48:24Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > Ari’s missing press gaggle (July 13, 2003) (not on white house site): > [http://canberra.usembassy.gov/hyper/2003/0709/epf301.htm](http://canberra.usembassy.gov/hyper/2003/0709/epf301.htm) THis seems to be from July 9th 2003 ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2005, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/428 "2005-07-21T14:05:27Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > THis seems to be from July 9th 2003 So it was. I’m noot sure where I got the later date. The gaggle was in Praetoria, South Africa. It’s still missing from the white house [briefing collection](http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/briefings/). ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2005, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/429 "2005-07-21T14:17:10Z")
I find this to be the most peculiar part of this exchange [http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/07/20030714-4.html](http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/07/20030714-4.html) MR. FLEISCHER: No, you’re missing the point I’ve said earlier about **in addition to Niger, Africa is a large continent that has more than one country. There was reporting that there were other countries on the continent that Iraq may have been pursuing uranium from**. Whether those reports turn out to be true or not, we do not know. The point is. the information in Cincinnati was specific to one country. The information in the State of the Union was much broader than that, about the continent. And given the fact that this is where Iraq did, indeed, as the world knows, get a portion of its uranium from before, it’s not a statement that could be without merit. In fact, it could be. \ MR. FLEISCHER: The reason the British were cited is because the British had a public document. We often refer to public documents, as opposed to classified information. How many times from this podium have you heard me say that I don’t discuss classified information or intelligence information? The British report was public, that’s why we discussed the British report. it was based on a public document. Now, we’ve said it went through the vetting process, and that’s exactly how it worked. Q But Dr. Rice made clear yesterday in her Sunday talk shows that what made the sentence technically accurate was that it was cited to the British – not the CIA, not the U.S., that it was cited to the British. So you all went – MR. FLEISCHER: And the British stand by it. Q Well, that’s true. But you all went through a lot of hoops to try to get this into the speech. Why? MR. FLEISCHER: Because this was information that was relevant to the case about whether Iraq was reconstituting its nuclear program. It was part of the argument that the President was making based on biological weapons, chemical weapons and nuclear weapons. Q But it didn’t matter that you had – MR. FLEISCHER: And the sentence immediately before it, Jeanne – **do you remember what the sentence was immediately before the statement about Niger?** Q No. MR. FLEISCHER: It was that Iraq is seeking five different ways to enrich its uranium. It was a broad statement and then **the President made the specific reference to Niger**. And he made it because that’s what the intelligence showed at that time, and we’ve been very up front in saying since then that it should not have risen to the President’s level. You’re asking, why did it rise to the President’s level. The answer is it shouldn’t. Q I’m asking why did somebody want it in the speech so badly? MR. FLEISCHER: Because it was based on reporting; we had reason to believe the reporting was accurate. Clearly he’s talking about the SOTU. Note the five different ways: [http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/01/20030128-19.html](http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/01/20030128-19.html) The International Atomic Energy Agency confirmed in the 1990s that Saddam Hussein had an advanced nuclear weapons development program, had a design for a nuclear weapon and was working on five different methods of enriching uranium for a bomb. The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa. Our intelligence sources tell us that he has attempted to purchase high-strength aluminum tubes suitable for nuclear weapons production. Saddam Hussein has not credibly explained these activities. He clearly has much to hide. Yet he specifically says that the comments about uranium are a specific reference to Niger. I though the out they had was that the info was about other countries in Africa. Did Ari get off message? Or is there something I’m missing here? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2005, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/430 "2005-07-21T14:39:07Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa. Our intelligence sources tell us that he has attempted to purchase high-strength aluminum tubes suitable for nuclear weapons production. Saddam Hussein has not credibly explained these activities. He clearly has much to hide. They were wrong about the aluminum tubes, too, of course. The ‘Africa’ line was specifically about Niger. No other country was ever mentioned that I can recall, and Niger was mentioned specifically by others supporting the case for war. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2005, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/431 "2005-07-21T16:17:01Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > They were wrong about the aluminum tubes, too, of course. > > The ‘Africa’ line was specifically about Niger. No other country was ever mentioned that I can recall, and Niger was mentioned specifically by others supporting the case for war. You know that, and I know that, but the official line was “in addition to Niger, Africa is a large continent that has more than one country. There was reporting that there were other countries on the continent that Iraq may have been pursuing uranium from.” And this official line was part of the out used to justify the use of “sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa” even though the stuff about Niger was known to be false. Yet right after voicing this line, Ari goes on to say that the “sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa” bit was specifically referring to Niger instead of “other countries on the continent.” At least that’s how it looks to me. ---
**Author:** ![bizzwire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/958977/32.png) [@bizzwire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bizzwire)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2005, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/432 "2005-07-21T16:22:15Z")
> [@Stephe96](#): > > Come on, you guys. I’m disappointed. I thought you had all pretty much decided that when Bush needs to get out of a jam he simply _raises the terror level_. Or announces a Supreme Court nominee on prime time. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2005, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/433 "2005-07-22T12:53:09Z")
**Perjury, anyone?** [From Bloomberg](http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000103&sid=an7SakVWGrTQ) > [@](#): > > Rove, Libby Accounts in CIA Case Differ With Those of Reporters > July 22 (Bloomberg) – Two top White House aides have given accounts to a special prosecutor about how reporters first told them the identity of a CIA agent that are at odds with what the reporters have said, according to people familiar with the case. > > Lewis ``Scooter’’ Libby, Vice President Dick Cheney’s chief of staff, told special prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald that he first learned from NBC News reporter Tim Russert of the identity of Central Intelligence Agency operative Valerie Plame, the wife of former ambassador and Bush administration critic Joseph Wilson, one person said. Russert has testified before a federal grand jury that he didn’t tell Libby of Plame’s identity, the person said. > > White House Deputy Chief of Staff Karl Rove told Fitzgerald that he first learned the identity of the CIA agent from syndicated columnist Robert Novak, according a person familiar with the matter. Novak, who was first to report Plame’s name and connection to Wilson, has given a somewhat different version to the special prosecutor, the person said. > > These discrepancies may be important because Fitzgerald is investigating whether Libby, Rove or other administration officials made false statements during the course of the investigation. Well, at least Scott McClelland can take solace in the idea that he wasn’t the only one being lied to. By the way, where did **Sam Stone** go? This was shaping up so nicely like SDMB Swift Boats Debates Round 2. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2005, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/434 "2005-07-22T13:50:01Z")
They probably just didn’t want to risk him reading from the teleprompter and mispronouncing “Niger”. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2005, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/435 "2005-07-22T16:34:18Z")
Yeah. If he said “nee-ZJER”, Kerry would have accused him of being French. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2005, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/436 "2005-07-23T03:17:48Z")
There’s an odd paragraph in this saturday Guardian story: [Bush aide misled FBI, say reports](http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1534684,00.html?gusrc=rss) > [@](#): > > Meanwhile, **a parallel investigation is under way into who forged the Niger documents**. They are known to have been passed to an Italian journalist by a former Italian defence intelligence officer, Rocco Martino, in October 2002, but their origins have remained a mystery. This is the first I’ve heard of an investigation into the actual forgeries in a _long_ time. Is this real? Who is running the investigation? ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2005, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/437 "2005-07-24T02:50:57Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > There’s an odd paragraph in this saturday Guardian story: > [Bush aide misled FBI, say reports](http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1534684,00.html?gusrc=rss) This is the first I’ve heard of an investigation into the actual forgeries in a _long_ time. Is this real? Who is running the investigation? Just to add a data point, [Digby](http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2005_07_17_digbysblog_archive.html#112213845434419309) took a run at this today. ---
**Author:** ![Spavined\_Gelding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@Spavined\_Gelding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spavined_Gelding)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2005, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/438 "2005-07-24T22:32:21Z")
This morning, while being rushed out the door for the weekly bathing in the Blood of the Lamb, our old buddy and part time TV personality Ben Stein materialized on one of the Sunday morning blather shows. As near as I can tell from the bit I heard Ben is carrying a brief for the Noise Machine. He said that he had worked for Nixon who was a genius who somewhat mishandled a press generated controversy. Based on his experience with the Nixon White House Mr. Stein was of the opinion that President Bush _must_ stand by Mr. Rove because Rove has been a loyal comrade in arms, has done nothing wrong, Mrs. Plume was not a real spy but rather actually worked at a desk, and dumping Rove would just encourage the _liberals_, especially Senator Schumer, who are really after the President’s heads, not Rove’s. As amiable as Ben is on his quiz show just about everything he had to say this morning was either flat wrong or deliberately deceptive. More importantly it demonstrates an attempt to divert attention from the ethical shoddiness, and vindictiveness of the leak of Mrs. Plume CID connection and the necessary inquiry into the merits of Ambassador Wilson conclusions about Niger’s yellow cake and Iraq and the fraud (and I use that word with care) practiced by President Bush and his administration in the lead up to the invasion of Iraq. The Administration’s effort is to spin the whole fiasco as a technical federal criminal law turning on arcane minutiae of evidence, statutory interpretation and federal job descriptions – that is, to make the whole damned thing too complicated and tedious for a person of ordinary intelligence, patience and attention span to bother with. This is just what I warned out friend **elucidator** about some days ago. It makes no difference to me whether Mr. Rove’s conduct was criminal or not. What matters is that this was underhanded, dishonest, weasel like vengeance on what appears to be an honest career government employee who had the backbone to blow the whistle on a fraud. What matters is that this Administration’s reaction to challenge is defamation and thuggery. What matters is that this Administration has resorted to blatant falsehoods to get its way on the invasion Iraq, on social security, on income tax, on restricting court damages, on estate taxes, on the course of the occupation of Iraq, on federal court appointments, and that it has, so far evaded any attempt to require it to account for its actions. Some place I suggested that the invasion of Iraq had about as much with bringing Iraq and the Middle East the blessings of Western liberal democracy as the Spanish conquest of Central America had to do with the Apostolic Mission, that the example of the French invasion of Mexico had lessons. I now suggest a number of parallels between the excuses for the invasion of Iraq and the justification for the Spanish-American war – noting that it is pretty well concluded that Spain had nothing to do with the explosion of the _USS Maine_ and that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2005, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/439 "2005-07-24T22:44:14Z")
Interesting. I wonder if there will be a proveable link from the forged yellow cake documents back to the White House, or at least back to the “department of neocon ideology” in the CIA, that was detailed by ex Lt Col Kwiatkowski a year or two ago. So now we have Bolton, Libby, Rove and Fleischman in the mix. Each with a different and conflicting story. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2005, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/440 "2005-07-24T23:50:32Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Interesting. I wonder if there will be a proveable link from the forged yellow cake documents back to the White House, or at least back to the “department of neocon ideology”… For your amusement: [Niger Yellowcake and The Man Who Forged Too Much](http://www.uruknet.info/?p=m13977&l=i&size=1&hd=0) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896.md?page=23)