# Karl Rove - CIA leaker? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 3, 2005, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896 "2005-07-03T04:01:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/121 "2005-07-15T02:59:25Z")
It’s possible that you guys are right. However, if you jump up and down and scream bloody murder about something like this you had **God Damn well better be right.** And it can’t be shades of gray or the public isn’t going to get it or buy it. The Republicans have gotten across the fear that the barbarians are right at the gates and people are willing to give the President the benefit of any doubt. And I don’t think it’s a slam dunk that the jumpers and screamers have really got The Straight Dope. In fact they are mainly depending upon the writings of the journalists that you guys say are a bunch of patsies. I don’t want to give GW, Rove, Rummy, Wolfie ore any of them a free pass. It must be possible for Democratic politicos to quietly urge friendly reporters, editors and publishers to keep at it, and give them tips on where to look. After all, isn’t there a vast, left-wing liberal media machine out there? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/122 "2005-07-15T03:33:37Z")
Damage is done. You see that poll, just came out? His rating as “honest and sincere” dropped _10 points_ in the last two months. And that was about the only thing he had going. He got enormous scoobies out of 9/11, all that manly posturing and stuff. People _want_ to believe in a leader, especially when they’re scared. And any damn fool can strut around, make the right noises, jut his chin out, talk tought, bingo! The Leader! Carrot Top could have done it, just follow the script. You only get in trouble when you start to believe your own press releases. Which he did. Now, nobody believes in his agenda, his war, or him. Got a fork? ---
**Author:** ![Stephe96](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Stephe96](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stephe96)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/123 "2005-07-15T03:48:19Z")
Well, it looks like the NY Times backs Rove up on this: “The person who provided the information about Mr. Rove’s conversation with Mr. Novak declined to be identified, citing requests by Mr. Fitzgerald that no one discuss the case. The person discussed the matter in the belief that Mr. Rove was truthful in saying he did not disclose Ms. Wilson’s identity.” According to the article, it sounds like Novak was already running with the story about Plame when he talked to Rove. Rove simply said, “I heard that, too.” I’m sorry, but this hardly looks like he “outed” Plame. And if the NY Times is willing to cut Rove this much slack while at the same time protecting Judith Miller’s source while she sits in prison…well, I’m not sure what to think, to be honest. Why in the world would the NY Times protect Karl Rove? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/124 "2005-07-15T03:51:33Z")
> [@Stephe96](#): > > Why in the world would the NY Times protect Karl Rove? Stockholm Syndrome? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/125 "2005-07-15T04:26:48Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > It’s possible that you guys are right. However, if you jump up and down and scream bloody murder about something like this you had **God Damn well better be right.** And it can’t be shades of gray or the public isn’t going to get it or buy it. The shades of gray arguments at this point are being made by the people defending Rove: ‘he didn’t mention her name,’ ‘it was an open secret,’ and ‘he didn’t do it on purpose.’ And that follows an unequivocal promise from the White House that Rove wasn’t involved, when we know for a fact he talked to Cooper and Novak. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/126 "2005-07-15T06:04:57Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > The shades of gray arguments at this point are being made by the people defending Rove: ‘he didn’t mention her name,’ ‘it was an open secret,’ and ‘he didn’t do it on purpose.’ And that follows an unequivocal promise from the White House that Rove wasn’t involved, when we know for a fact he talked to Cooper and Novak. Look. I’m not defending Rove, or Gw or any of than gang. All I’m saying is that going off at half-cock out of eagerness to “get Rove” might not be all that smart. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/127 "2005-07-15T06:09:28Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > Look. I’m not defending Rove, or Gw or any of than gang. All I’m saying is that going off at half-cock out of eagerness to “get Rove” might not be all that smart. I’m not saying you’re defending him, just responding to your point about trifling distinctions, which I think is a good one. I’ve said the same thing to many people about being too eager to get the guy, since it’ll just feed into the charges Republicans have started to make about this being a witchhunt for a guy who did nothing wrong. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Highwayman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@The\_Highwayman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Highwayman)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/128 "2005-07-15T06:12:58Z")
I just say let Republicans believe the spin being put on this. Check out the latest CNN poll about whether or not Rove should be fired. It’s overwhelmingly in the affirmative. So let them stick to their guns, they think they have plenty of “political capital,” it’s going to bite them come '06. And OH YES, the tide is turning: From Shiavo to Social Security to Iraq, this administration is going lame duck so wonderfully fast. I bet they were sitting around all smug when the attack on London happened thinking that this was going to be another gravy train of fear but everyone realizes that it’s further indication that he is failing in what he elected to prevent, that is, terrorism. I think that it is tragic that the two things which stand out for me in my criticism of the Bush administration, failing to thwart terrorism and calling theories of global warming “junk science,” are coming to haunt them now. I wonder if the people in Florida like hurricanes. I hope those that voted from Bush regret it now. It’s not so much “junk science” when your hurricane season starts in July. So let them keep doing what they are doing, their arrogance is well known. The fact that Bush has not had a political victory since the election is proof that their high point has past and it’s all downhill from here. When things continue to sour and a single party controls all three branches of government, you can’t keep on blaming liberals for your shortcomings. The worst thing for us is that they “man up” and start accepting responsibility for what they have done. The beautiful part is that Rove is going to stay but that is part of what will insure that the Republicans lose the White House in '08. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/129 "2005-07-15T11:37:49Z")
> [@Stephe96](#): > > Well, it looks like the NY Times backs Rove up on this: > > “The person who provided the information about Mr. Rove’s conversation with Mr. Novak declined to be identified, citing requests by Mr. Fitzgerald that no one discuss the case. The person discussed the matter in the belief that Mr. Rove was truthful in saying he did not disclose Ms. Wilson’s identity.” > > According to the article, it sounds like Novak was already running with the story about Plame when he talked to Rove. Rove simply said, “I heard that, too.” I’m sorry, but this hardly looks like he “outed” Plame. And if the NY Times is willing to cut Rove this much slack while at the same time protecting Judith Miller’s source while she sits in prison…well, I’m not sure what to think, to be honest. > > Why in the world would the NY Times protect Karl Rove? :dubious: [It’s nice to give a link](http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/15/politics/15rove.html?hp&ex=1121486400&en=bac819afc84e3590&ei=5094&partner=homepage) Well, that is one way to interpret the article, but I think I would describe that interpretation as rightwardly cockeyed optimism. The NYT article isn’t backing Rove’s side of the story; it is reporting on someone who does back his side of the story talking about, and trying to spin, what Rove allegedly told the grand jury. In fact, the NYT article is almost painful in its efforts to attribute to “the person” what you would attribute to the NYT. Here are some excerpts from the article that don’t deal with the information from the “person” that don’t seem consistent with your assertion that the NYT is protecting Rove. > [@](#): > > The conversation between Mr. Novak and Mr. Rove seemed almost certain to intensify the question about whether one of Mr. Bush’s closest political advisers played a role in what appeared to be an effort to undermine Mr. Wilson’s credibility after he challenged the veracity of a key point in Mr. Bush’s 2003 State of the Union speech, saying Saddam Hussein had sought nuclear fuel in Africa. > [@](#): > > This is not the first time Mr. Rove has been linked to a leak reported by Mr. Novak. In 1992, Mr. Rove was fired from the Texas campaign to re-elect the first President Bush because of suspicions that he had leaked information to Mr. Novak about shortfalls in the Texas organization’s fund-raising. Both Mr. Rove and Mr. Novak have denied that Mr. Rove had been the source. > > Mr. Novak’s July 14, 2003, column was published against a backdrop in which White House officials were clearly agitated by Mr. Wilson’s assertion, in his Op-Ed article, that the administration had “twisted” intelligence about the threat from Iraq. > [@](#): > > The Rove-Novak exchange also leaves Mr. McClellan, the White House spokesman, in an increasingly awkward situation. Two years ago he repeatedly assured reporters that neither Mr. Rove nor several other administration officials were responsible for the leak. It seems to me not that the NYT is backing Karl Rove, but that they are reporting on what a “person” who claims to know Rove’s testimony to the grand jury is telling them. ---
**Author:** ![bizzwire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/958977/32.png) [@bizzwire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bizzwire)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/130 "2005-07-15T11:47:11Z")
> [@Stephe96](#): > > According to the article, it sounds like Novak was already running with the story about Plame when he talked to Rove. Rove simply said, “I heard that, too.” I’m sorry, but this hardly looks like he “outed” Plame. And if the NY Times is willing to cut Rove this much slack while at the same time protecting Judith Miller’s source while she sits in prison…well, I’m not sure what to think, to be honest. If the truth is so benign, why didn’t Rove say this two years ago? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/131 "2005-07-15T12:19:36Z")
> [@Stephe96](#): > > Why in the world would the NY Times protect Karl Rove? Your comment reflects an outdated belief that the Times sets some sort of standard on journalism. Fact is, they don’t any more. They’re a bunch of ass clowns. First they let that guy get away with all that fake reporting, then they let Judith Miller (the reporter in jail) turn the Times into an administration mouthpiece during the run-up to the Iraq war, running all sorts of untrue, unsubstantiated stories about Saddam and WMDs. This could be just another fuckup on their part. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/132 "2005-07-15T12:22:29Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > It’s possible that you guys are right. However, if you jump up and down and scream bloody murder about something like this you had **God Damn well better be right.** Why does it matter whether we turn out to be right or not. All the discoverable facts indicate we ARE right, and the Pubbies get away on issue after issue with lying their asses off … why should we be held to a different standard than them? Mind you, we ARE better than them, even if we’re wrong, because we’re advocating things we believe to be true, whereas the Pubbies will look you straight in the eye and lie their asses off. And.they.get.away.with.it. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/133 "2005-07-15T14:39:22Z")
> [@bizzwire](#): > > If the truth is so benign, why didn’t Rove say this two years ago? The dog had a mouthful of snausages so he couldn’t bark. ---
**Author:** ![Stephe96](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Stephe96](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stephe96)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/134 "2005-07-15T14:53:28Z")
> [@Hentor the Barbarian](#): > > : > It seems to me not that the NYT is backing Karl Rove, but that they are reporting on what a “person” who claims to know Rove’s testimony to the grand jury is telling them. OK, maybe the NY Times isn’t ‘backing’ Rove, but it seems to me that with each passing revelation in this story the case for ‘Rove outted Plame’ becomes less and less credible. Even with access to some grand jury testimony NOBODY is reporting that Rove knowingly revealed the name of a covert CIA operative using classified information. Without that the irrational Rove-haters really don’t have much of a case, do they? Add to this the fact that Judith Miller continues to sit in jail protecting SOMEBODY and one really has to wonder if this wasn’t some kind of trap. Who was Miller’s source? ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/135 "2005-07-15T15:11:05Z")
To come back to the suggestion made, that there are “shades of gray” and so on. There ARE no shades of gray. Throughout this administration, the people in power made that abundantly clear. Any wavering, and deviation from the party line was helping the terrorists. Anything less than total obedience was treason. No gray there at all. It is simple justice to hold them to the exact same yard stick. In this current scandal, the charge could very well be treason, or conspiracy to commit treason. If Rove was so innocent, he could have derailed the entire affair when it first surfaced. Instead he set it on the back burner to be forgotten or swept aside. The entire Plame business started because Wilson did not back up the Yellow Cake story that was being used as part of the reason to go to war in Iraq. Since then, the entire WMD alibi has been debunked. The reason Rove went after Plame was to punish Wilson. for daring to contradict Rove/Bush in their rush to war. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/136 "2005-07-15T15:12:03Z")
> [@Stephe96](#): > > OK, maybe the NY Times isn’t ‘backing’ Rove, but it seems to me that with each passing revelation in this story the case for ‘Rove outted Plame’ becomes less and less credible. . No, not really. Actually, it confirms that “Rove outed Plame,” but tries to seek some lame ass mitigation for the release of crucial security information (e.g., he was warning the reporter off, he was blowing the whistle on the nefarious Wilson, he was only confirming what everyone knew). None of this changes the fact that Rove outed Wilson. > [@](#): > > Even with access to some grand jury testimony NOBODY is reporting that Rove knowingly revealed the name of a covert CIA operative using classified information. Without that the irrational Rove-haters really don’t have much of a case, do they? Who has access to the grand jury testimony? Only one person who chose to tell a highly dubious Rove friendly story. Could that be why NOBODY is reporting anything that clearly implicates Rove? > [@](#): > > Add to this the fact that Judith Miller continues to sit in jail protecting SOMEBODY and one really has to wonder if this wasn’t some kind of trap. Who was Miller’s source? Why can’t it be the case that Rove was Miller’s source? Just because other reporters revealed their sources doesn’t mean that she will too. Perhaps she has more damning Rove information, and is simply trying to protect him. Clearly her recent history has been as a mouthpiece of misinformation for the administration. ---
**Author:** ![Stephe96](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Stephe96](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stephe96)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/137 "2005-07-15T15:29:14Z")
[QUOTE=Hentor the Barbarian] . None of this changes the fact that Rove outed Wilson. QUOTE] I’ve yet to see any credible evidence supporting this. How could Rove have “outed” Valerie Plame if Novak was already running with the story? ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/138 "2005-07-15T15:35:34Z")
Maybe I’ve missed it somewhere; but has Novak revealed his source? If so, who was it? If not, why is Miller in jail and he’s not. He is the one who printed the information and she sat on the story. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/139 "2005-07-15T16:03:01Z")
> [@Homebrew](#): > > Maybe I’ve missed it somewhere; but has Novak revealed his source? Novak has testified to the grand jury, whose proceedings are still secret. Presumably, he sang like a canary, or else he would be held in contempt also. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/140 "2005-07-15T17:21:03Z")
> [@Stephe96](#): > > I’ve yet to see any credible evidence supporting this. How could Rove have “outed” Valerie Plame if Novak was already running with the story? Because he, a government official in a position to do so, confirmed Plame’s status to Cooper. Regardless of whether it came up off-hand or whether Cooper came to him and said, Novak told me Joe Wilson’s wife is an undercover agent of the CIA, it remained illegal for Rove to affirm, confirm or otherwise reveal that she was an agent. And that’s even if you buy the cockamamie story in the first place. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896.md?page=8)