# Karl Rove - CIA leaker? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 3, 2005, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896 "2005-07-03T04:01:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/141 "2005-07-15T17:58:14Z")
I’m fairly new to GD, so I am not aware of what the prevailing attitude of the board was regarding Sandy Berger stealing classified information. I view his actions and Rove’s alleged actions with equal disdain. Don’t want to do a hijack her. Could someone point me to a thread or two? Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/142 "2005-07-15T18:09:37Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I’m fairly new to GD, so I am not aware of what the prevailing attitude of the board was regarding Sandy Berger stealing classified information. I view his actions and Rove’s alleged actions with equal disdain. > > Don’t want to do a hijack her. Could someone point me to a thread or two? > > Thanks. Nice attempt at distraction and hijack. Perhaps if you are interested, you should simply search for the other threads and post to them, or start a new thread on the issue. If you have anything further to try to justify Rove’s behavior, don’t hesitate to share it. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/143 "2005-07-15T18:19:35Z")
[Sandy Berger to plead guilty on document stealing charge.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=309680&highlight=berger) ---
**Author:** ![Mal\_Adroit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df788c/32.png) [@Mal\_Adroit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mal_Adroit)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/144 "2005-07-15T19:53:16Z")
Maybe I’m just simple, but MSNBC’s report on it today reads much less convolutedly to me than the New York Times’s. [http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8577190/](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8577190/) **Point #1: In case anyone was still unclear on the matter, Robert Novak is for all time a criminal, an enemy of his country, and a d\*ck slap.** > [@](#): > > The person (who works in the legal profession and spoke only on condition of anonymity because of the secrecy of grand jury proceedings) said Rove testified that Novak told him he had learned and planned to report in a weekend column that Wilson’s wife, Plame, had worked for the CIA, and the circumstances on how her husband traveled to Africa to check bogus claims of alleged nuclear material sales to Iraq. > > Novak’s column, citing two Bush administration officials, appeared six days later. . . So Novak found out about Plame, mentioned it to Rove, and soon published it in his column. Karl the Slug: staying slime-free for the moment. **Point #2: Rove basically told Novak that he’d heard the same thing.** > [@](#): > > When Novak inquired about Wilson’s wife working for the CIA, Rove indicated he had heard something like that, according to the source’s recounting of the grand jury testimony. While not the pinnacle of discretion (he easily could have said nothing if he was actually concerned or cognizant of the gravity of discussing/confirming the matter with a journalist), he wasn’t really “outing” anyone here in the strictest sense. You could argue that Rove “sealed the deal” for Novak, i.e., backed up Novak’s orig. source, possibly enbolding Novak to go on with his column. . . but that still doesn’t reveal him to be actively and single-mindedly punishing a critic of the Bush administration by going to a journalist and leaking classified information. Karl the Slug retains a thin layer of slime on Point #2. **Point #3: Rove then went on to inform another journalist that Joseph Wilson’s wife was a CIA employee.** > [@](#): > > Rove told the grand jury that **four days later,** he had a phone conversation with Time magazine reporter Matt Cooper and — in an effort to discredit some of Wilson’s allegations — told Cooper that Wilson’s wife worked for the CIA, though he never used her name. Doesn’t matter that he never used her name. That could be determined quickly enough. Doesn’t matter that he knew Novak had the information already. (Although, as bolded above, Rove talked to Cooper two days before Novak’s column appeared.) What matters is here we plainly see Karl Rove _actively divulging the identity of a CIA employee._ If he didn’t know that was against federal law? Then his cluelessness is his misfortune. Just as it would be my misfortune to be unaware that, prior to selling state secrets to a foreign government, such an act constitutes treason to my country and I can be put to death for it. Thy slime has offically overtaken thee, Mr. Rove. It is time for you to go. ---
**Author:** ![Stephe96](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Stephe96](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stephe96)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2005, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/145 "2005-07-16T02:34:37Z")
From CNN: [http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0507/14/wbr.01.html](http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0507/14/wbr.01.html) WILSON: My wife was not a clandestine officer the day that Bob Novak blew her identity. Oops! Looks like that’s the end of the story. No crime here. Sorry, folks. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2005, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/146 "2005-07-16T02:40:02Z")
Err…that’s a bit confusing, to say the least. If she wasn’t a clandestine officer at the time, how does he understand the law to apply to the situation? Daniel ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2005, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/147 "2005-07-16T03:02:43Z")
Today’s ABC News throws yet another wrinkle into the mix. According to the report, after the conversation with Novak, Rove contacted the appropriate security people and reported it to them, including the contents of the conversation. If so, that should clear him. In that case, the leaker is someone else. If true, it takes all the wind out of my sails, as I sort of like being a Rove hater. ---
**Author:** ![Stephe96](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Stephe96](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stephe96)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2005, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/148 "2005-07-16T03:07:49Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Today’s ABC News throws yet another wrinkle into the mix. According to the report, after the conversation with Novak, Rove contacted the appropriate security people and reported it to them, including the contents of the conversation. If so, that should clear him. In that case, the leaker is someone else. If true, it takes all the wind out of my sails, as I sort of like being a Rove hater. Sorry, but it looks like Rove is in the clear. You have Wilson admitting that his wife wasn’t covert at the time AND you have a leak from the grand jury indicating that Novak’s column was already pretty much written by the time he spoked to Karl. The question here is: who was Judith Miller’s source? And why is the NY Times protecting him? Could it possibly be that Miller’s source was…Joe Wilson? Hmmmm. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2005, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/149 "2005-07-16T03:08:09Z")
> [@Stephe96](#): > > From CNN: [CNN.com - Transcripts](http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0507/14/wbr.01.html) > > WILSON: My wife was not a clandestine officer the day that Bob Novak blew her identity. > Oops! Looks like that’s the end of the story. No crime here. Sorry, folks. Ah, the dark arts of careful elision! Here’s the sentence I like, nestled amongst disagreeable verbage. Maybe no one will notice that it goes on… > [@](#): > > …BLITZER: But she hadn’t been a clandestine officer for some time before that? > > WILSON: That’s not anything that I can talk about. And, indeed, I’ll go back to what I said earlier, the CIA believed that a possible crime had been committed, and that’s why they referred it to the Justice Department… ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2005, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/150 "2005-07-16T03:13:54Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Today’s ABC News throws yet another wrinkle into the mix. According to the report, after the conversation with Novak, Rove contacted the appropriate security people and reported it to them, including the contents of the conversation. If so, that should clear him. In that case, the leaker is someone else. If true, it takes all the wind out of my sails, as I sort of like being a Rove hater. I assume this story is from the same source as the (earlier today) Novak story. I’m skeptical. But we’ll see. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2005, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/151 "2005-07-16T03:17:38Z")
Can we hang him anyway just for being Karl Rove? Pleeeeeease? ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2005, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/152 "2005-07-16T03:19:30Z")
> [@Stephe96](#): > > WILSON: My wife was not a clandestine officer the day that Bob Novak blew her identity. > Oops! Looks like that’s the end of the story. No crime here. Sorry, folks. [AP Makes Key Addition to Rove Story on Wilson ‘Clandestine’ Quote](http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1000980270) > [@](#): > > "In an interview Friday, Wilson said his comment was meant to reflect that\*\* his wife lost her ability to be a covert agent because of the leak\*\*, not that she had stopped working for the CIA beforehand. Crime here. Sorry, **Stephe96**. Please try to keep up. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2005, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/153 "2005-07-16T03:26:38Z")
Here is a link to the ABC story. [http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=944219](http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=944219) Still I sort of like jajjay’s post. Now how to do it. I could see Rove doing some dirty stuff, but I really can’t see him calling up the Big Security Guys and possibly destroying himself right after creating a leak. He may be a crook, but not a stupid crook. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2005, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/154 "2005-07-16T03:26:56Z")
Ari Fleisher’s name is getting some play lately, which would be just about perfect for the Bushiviks. Love to fire him, but, shucks! he doesn’t work here anymore! Still, the ploy that somehow Plame’s clandestine status can be vacated by Bob Novak is moot. Until that status was offically rescinded, it doesn’t matter how many people broke the law, its still breaking the law. Full text here [http://atrios.blogspot.com/](http://atrios.blogspot.com/) (Can’t cut and paste, some internet trickery…go and look, scroll down to More Troubles For Rove?) ---
**Author:** ![Stephe96](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Stephe96](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stephe96)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2005, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/155 "2005-07-16T03:29:09Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > [AP Makes Key Addition to Rove Story on Wilson ‘Clandestine’ Quote](http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1000980270) > > Crime here. Sorry, **Stephe96**. Please try to keep up. Ha ha ha! How many times will Joe Wilson have to change his story before even the most pathological foamy-mouthed Rove hater starts to doubt his credibilty? As each tidbit in this story is revealed, it looks less and less likely that Rove had _anything_ to do with ‘outing’ Valerie Plame. Hell, it barely even appears as if she was in any kind of position where she could even _be_ ‘outed!’ Meanwhile, Joe Wilson continues to backtrack and ‘clarify’ what he _really_ meant to say every time he opens his mouth. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2005, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/156 "2005-07-16T03:32:08Z")
That’s a real good Joe Isuzu! Can you do Jack Nicholson? ---
**Author:** ![Stephe96](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Stephe96](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stephe96)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2005, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/157 "2005-07-16T03:32:12Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > [AP Makes Key Addition to Rove Story on Wilson ‘Clandestine’ Quote](http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1000980270) > > Crime here. Sorry, **Stephe96**. Please try to keep up. By the way, the original quote came from a CNN transcript. Presumably this means Wilson said it _live on-air_ ! Trying to make it sound like an AP reporting error in the first place is pretty much laughable. Try again. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2005, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/158 "2005-07-16T03:32:17Z")
> [@Stephe96](#): > > Ha ha ha! How many times will Joe Wilson have to change his story before even the most pathological foamy-mouthed Rove hater starts to doubt his credibilty? Oh, my. Would you recognize irony if it bit you on the nose? Any supporter of the least honest and forthcoming White House in the history of this nation has no business even accusing anyone else of changing their story… I’m predicting right now that there will come a point, once the Kool-Aid runs out, where an awful lot of people who previously defended the Bush Administration are going to be very, very angry with how they were led down the garden path. The sad thing is that they don’t see it now. Actually, the sad thing is that they didn’t see it in November. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2005, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/159 "2005-07-16T03:38:06Z")
> [@Stephe96](#): > > Sorry, but it looks like Rove is in the clear. You have Wilson admitting that his wife wasn’t covert at the time AND you have a leak from the grand jury indicating that Novak’s column was already pretty much written by the time he spoked to Karl. > > The question here is: who was Judith Miller’s source? And why is the NY Times protecting him? Could it possibly be that Miller’s source was…Joe Wilson? > > Hmmmm. The AP already corrected the report, Wilson was sarcastic and what it said essentially was (paraphrasing): “after they blew her cover, my wife was no longer an agent.” So no, Rove is not in the clear, if the reports from the blogosphere I trust are correct, It is likely that Novak told the jury that the NYT’s Judith Miller told Novak about Valerie Plame’s CIA identity, then Novak called his two White House sources (one of them Rove) for confirmation. So he still corroborated that Plame was an agent, but I have to wonder if the sources you got your bit of info that “clears” Rove will make a correction. And as I said before, I am not much concerned if Rove is not the main leaker, this administration is irresponsible with information. ---
**Author:** ![Stephe96](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Stephe96](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stephe96)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2005, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896/160 "2005-07-16T03:41:51Z")
[QUOTE=jayjay] Any supporter of the least honest and forthcoming White House in the history of this nation has no business even accusing anyone else of changing their story… QUOTE] I’ll accuse someone of “changing their story” if evidence indicates that they did indeed “change their story.” Joe Wilson has a tough time with the truth. For example, he first claimed that he was sent to Niger on behalf of Vice President Cheney. Turns out this is entirely false. He tried to wriggle out of that one by saying that what he _really_ meant was that the plan to send him originated with someone in the Vice President’s office. When _that_ one didn’t fly he backed off a little more. And this is just one example. Wilson is clearly pathological in his hatred for Karl Rove. He basically admitted in that Wolf Blitzer interview that he doesn’t think Rove committed any crime…but that he should _still_ be fired for engaging in a smear campaign! Imagine! A smear campaign against someone in Washington! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karl-rove-cia-leaker/310896.md?page=9)