# Karzai Officially President! What Will Obama Do? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 2, 2009, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karzai-officially-president-what-will-obama-do/516066 "2009-11-02T17:09:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2009, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karzai-officially-president-what-will-obama-do/516066/21 "2009-11-07T04:42:07Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > Opinion confirmed. Age no excuse. > > And you do realise there was no such country as South Vietnam right? That is was created by the USA to stop Ho winning the democratic elections agreed in the treaty that ended the indo-china war? Tell that to the hundreds of thousands of refugees who went over to the States after the Reds took over. I pass by Westminister, CA almost every day and everywhere I see the Free Vietnam flag flying everywhere. > [@](#): > > And that South Vietnam was a brutal corrupt incompetent kleptocratic dictatorship (rather like the current illegitimate regime of the Mayor of Kabul)? But the North Vietnamese were communist brutal corrupt incompetent kleptocratic dictatorship. Seriously, if Vietnam hadn’t fell than South Vietnam like the Republic of Korea and Taiwan would be democracies by now. > [@](#): > > In short - your lack of any sort of knowledge of either current realities or past circumstance should stop you from embarrasing yourself further. But I’m guessing it won’t. > > Still waiting on those cites also. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq\_War](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War) > [@](#): > > Effects of the surge on security > U.S. soldiers take cover during a firefight with insurgents in the Al Doura section of Baghdad March 7, 2007 > > By March 2008, violence in Iraq was reported curtailed by 40-80%, according to a Pentagon report.[148] Independent reports[149][150] raised questions about those assessments. An Iraqi military spokesman claimed that civilian deaths since the start of the troop surge plan were 265 in Baghdad, down from 1,440 in the four previous weeks. The New York Times counted more than 450 Iraqi civilians killed during the same 28-day period, based on initial daily reports from Iraqi Interior Ministry and hospital officials. > > Historically, the daily counts tallied by the NYT have underestimated the total death toll by 50% or more when compared to studies by the United Nations, which rely upon figures from the Iraqi Health Ministry and morgue figures.[151] > > The rate of US combat deaths in Baghdad nearly doubled to 3.14/day in the first seven weeks of the “surge” in security activity, compared to previous period. Across the rest of Iraq it reduced slightly.[152][153] > An Iraqi woman looks on as U.S. soldiers search the courtyard of her house in Ameriyah, Iraq. Searching houses for weapons is a common counter-insurgency technique used in Iraq. > > On August 14, 2007 the deadliest single attack of the whole war occurred. Nearly 800 civilians were killed by a series of co-ordinated suicide bomb attacks on the northern Iraqi settlement of Qahtaniya. More than 100 homes and shops were destroyed in the blasts. US officials blamed al-Qaeda. The targeted villagers belonged to the non-Muslim Yazidi ethnic minority. The attack may have represented the latest in a feud that erupted earlier that year when members of the Yazidi community stoned to death a teenage girl called Du’a Khalil Aswad accused of dating a Sunni Arab man and converting to Islam. The killing of the girl was recorded on camera-mobiles and the video was uploaded onto the internet[154][155][156][157] > > On September 13, 2007 Abdul Sattar Abu Risha was killed in a bomb attack in the city of Ramadi.[158] He was an important US ally because he led the “Anbar Awakening”, an alliance of Sunni Arab tribes that opposed al-Qaeda. The latter organisation claimed responsibility for the attack.[159] A statement posted on the Internet by the shadowy Islamic State of Iraq called Abu Risha “one of the dogs of Bush” and described Thursday’s killing as a “heroic operation that took over a month to prepare”.[160] > US Fatalities in Iraq by month. The decline in deaths following the surge has been highlighted in red. > > There was a reported trend of decreasing US troop deaths after May 2007,[161] and violence against coalition troops had fallen to the “lowest levels since the first year of the American invasion”.[162] These, and several other positive developments, were attributed to the surge by many analysts.[163] > > Data from the Pentagon and other US agencies such as the Government Accountability Office (GAO) found that daily attacks against civilians in Iraq remained “about the same” since February. The GAO also stated that there was no discernible trend in sectarian violence.[164] However, this report ran counter to reports to Congress, which showed a general downward trend in civilian deaths and ethno-sectarian violence since December 2006.[165] By late 2007, as the U.S. troop surge began to wind down, violence in Iraq had begun to decrease from its 2006 highs.[166] > > Reports from the ground dispute that the surge had a significant effect on security in Iraq. While life in Baghdad improved in 2007-08, the main reason this was that the battle for Baghdad in 2006-07 between the Shia and the Sunni populations was won by the Shia, who as of September 2008 controlled three-quarters of the capital. These demographic changes appeared permanent; Sunni families who try to get their houses back faced assassination. Thus the war against the US occupation by the Sunni community, who had been favoured under Saddam Hussein, had largely ended. The Sunni have been largely defeated, not so much by the US army as by the Shia-led Iraqi government and the Shia militias.[167] > > Entire neighborhoods in Baghdad were ethnically cleansed by Shia and Sunni militias and sectarian violence has broken out in every Iraqi city where there is a mixed population.[168][169][170] This assessment is supported by a study of satellite imagery tracking the amount of light emitted by Baghdad neighborhoods at night. The interpretation of the data was that violence had declined in Baghdad due to ethnic cleansing and that intercommunal violence had reached a climax as the surge was beginning. John Agnew, an authority on ethnic conflict and leader of the project stated “The surge really seems to have been a case of closing the stable door after the horse has bolted.”[171][172] > > Investigative reporter Bob Woodward cites US government sources according to which the US “surge” was not the primary reason for the drop in violence in 2007-2008. Instead, according to that view, the reduction of violence was due to newer covert techniques by US military and intelligence officials to find, target and kill insurgents, including working closely with former insurgents.[173] > > In the Shia region near Basra, British forces turned over security for the region to Iraqi Security Forces. Basra is the ninth province of Iraq’s 18 provinces to be returned to local security forces’ control since the beginning of the occupation.[174] > [@](#): > > And as for not propping up an illegitimate regime with no support in the end days - another good call. It would have done no good. It would have been better to have stood by the Geneva Accords in the first place and never intervened. And reduce the standing of the United States of America as a cowardly state after already losing China and stalemating in Korea? Also the Vietnam War weakened communist power enough for it not to take over Thailand, Malaysia, and Indonesia. > [@LouisB](#): > > I propose we get the hell out and let those folks decide their own fate. Ha ha, how selfish of you, anyways that means do not condemn me for a war monger since you don’t have the moral highground here and unlike you I actually care about the people of Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![boytyperanma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2009, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karzai-officially-president-what-will-obama-do/516066/22 "2009-11-07T04:58:48Z")
I think Karzai is reason to get out. We have the choice of ousting yet another government or supporting a corrupt one. While Karzai isn’t popular with all the people of Afghanistan he is popular enough the people won’t tolerate the US throwing out leaders until we get one we like. We should cut support of the Afghanistan government and only keep troops there that are actively pursuing terrorist cells. Keep a small amount of troops for precise military operations targeting terrorist camps as long as we deem it efficient to do so. Congress can argue over what is efficient. Supporting a president who was elected by corruption is a lost cause. The elections was a result of the UN failing to provide the necessary support to ensure they were fair. I don’t feel its the US’s responsibility to correct that. Let another country spear head that effort with the UN. ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2009, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karzai-officially-president-what-will-obama-do/516066/23 "2009-11-08T03:31:26Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by **Curtis LeMay** : > Ha ha, how selfish of you, anyways that means do not condemn me for a war monger since you don’t have the moral highground here and unlike you I actually care about the people of Iraq. Yeah, I’m selfish when it comes to American lives and American treasure. I don’t quite understand when and where I called you a warmonger; if I were going to call you anything it would be something on the order of an immature child who hasn’t least idea of what he is talking about. I’m not about to discuss the moral high ground with a child and I would suggest if you care all that much about the Iraq people, buy yourself a ticket to Iraq and give them a hand. i ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2009, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karzai-officially-president-what-will-obama-do/516066/24 "2009-11-08T04:20:43Z")
> [@LouisB](#): > > Yeah, I’m selfish when it comes to American lives and American treasure. I don’t quite understand when and where I called you a warmonger; if I were going to call you anything it would be something on the order of an immature child who hasn’t least idea of what he is talking about. I’m not about to discuss the moral high ground with a child and I would suggest if you care all that much about the Iraq people, buy yourself a ticket to Iraq and give them a hand. i I would if I had half the chance but for financial concerns I can’t. I might wish to join the Peace Corps or it’s domestic equivalent (forgot it’s name) when I’m older. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2009, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karzai-officially-president-what-will-obama-do/516066/25 "2009-11-08T23:24:01Z")
Karzai will say anything we want him to ,to keep our billions of tax money going his way. We could go to Switzerland or the Caymans and visit our tax dollars. But they are being wasted in Afghanistan. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2009, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karzai-officially-president-what-will-obama-do/516066/26 "2009-11-08T23:59:03Z")
> [@LouisB](#): > > I suspect that violence in Iraq was almost non existent until we invaded the place, for no reason and with no planning other than some idiotic pipe dream that the citizenry would rise up and worship us as semi-divine liberators. You might consider that AQ had no presence in Iraq until we made their presence possible. Before we did them the grand favor of blowing their infrastructure apart, and killing hundreds of thousands of their citizens, they were pretty peaceful . The different sects lived together and intermarried. Over half the college students were women and they could and did wear western clothes. Women held jobs and were a big part of the employed. We knocked them back a few ages. Saddam was their problem. He was not a threat to other countries. Turkey said he was a paper tiger and they refused to help us in conquering Iraq. I do not get warm and fuzzy over what we have done. It is an international crime. When we abandoned the war in Afghanistan ,we had nothing to stand on. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2009, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karzai-officially-president-what-will-obama-do/516066/27 "2009-11-09T01:43:44Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > I assume you don’t remember our late success in Iraq? Also if we can just contain Al-Qaeda and reduce the violence by a fraction the treasure spent will be worth it. What success is that.? The place is blown apart and hundreds of thousands of Iraqis died. They are not safe in their own neighborhoods. The educated and professional class ran out of Iraq and have not returned. We blew up a beautiful city, Baghdad. There are concrete partitions running through neighborhoods. Do you ever question what you hear on Fox?How would you feel if that happened to your town? Would you describe that as a success? Al Queda was not in Iraq when we went in. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2009, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karzai-officially-president-what-will-obama-do/516066/28 "2009-11-11T02:06:14Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > What success is that.? The place is blown apart and hundreds of thousands of Iraqis died. They are not safe in their own neighborhoods. The educated and professional class ran out of Iraq and have not returned. We blew up a beautiful city, Baghdad. There are concrete partitions running through neighborhoods. Do you ever question what you hear on Fox?How would you feel if that happened to your town? Would you describe that as a success? > Al Queda was not in Iraq when we went in. I don’t watch Fox that much BTW, I usually get my stuff from CNN (a mildly liberal organisation) and Wikipedia. And violence has gone down now in Iraq and also there’s no Saddam anymore. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2009, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karzai-officially-president-what-will-obama-do/516066/29 "2009-11-11T02:30:56Z")
Saddam was a threat to the oil businesses. He threatened to produce more than OPEC wanted him too. He also wanted to quit using the dollar for oil exchange and go to the Euro. That is why we go to war. That is the same thing we did in the 50s when we overthrew a democratically elected government in Iran. Their president said he would takeover the oil companies to get more of the money produced . The coup worked ,so we did not have to go in. I am sure we would have. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2009, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karzai-officially-president-what-will-obama-do/516066/30 "2009-11-11T02:34:50Z")
[Smedley Butler on Interventionism](http://www.fas.org/man/smedley.htm) Here is Smedley Butler, the most decorated WW1 hero’s take on war. He worked for corporations. Then read what Eisenhower said in his farewell speech when he warned us of the danger of the Military/industrial complex. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2009, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karzai-officially-president-what-will-obama-do/516066/31 "2009-11-11T17:20:34Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Aalready losing China ‘Losing China’? He really said that? 😃 Classic. Wait up a minute … the fifties are on the phone. McCarthy wants his ‘reds under the bed’ hysteria back. ‘Losing China, domino theory’. This little guy cracks me up. Can we keep him, can we keep him? Please. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2009, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karzai-officially-president-what-will-obama-do/516066/32 "2009-11-12T02:29:45Z")
After days of one bullshit ‘scoop’ after another, a hopeful sign? [Official: Obama won’t take any current war options](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091112/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_us_afghanistan) > [@](#): > > President Barack Obama does not plan to accept any of the Afghanistan war options presented by his national security team, pushing instead for revisions to clarify how and when U.S. troops would turn over responsibility to the Afghan government, a senior administration official said Wednesday. Naturally the “senior administration official” spoke on condition of anonymity, so there’s no way to tell if this is just more BS, or not. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2009, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karzai-officially-president-what-will-obama-do/516066/33 "2009-11-12T18:17:57Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Ha ha, how selfish of you, anyways that means do not condemn me for a war monger since you don’t have the moral highground here and unlike you I actually care about the people of Iraq. Do you care about the people of Iraq? I think you see international politics (mostly warface) as a game, and you want to be on the biggest, strongest, baddest team. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2009, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karzai-officially-president-what-will-obama-do/516066/34 "2009-11-12T21:25:55Z")
> [@LouisB](#): > > I suspect that violence in Iraq was almost non existent until we invaded the place … Tell that to the thousands of political prisoners that were being tortured in Saddam’s jails. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2009, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karzai-officially-president-what-will-obama-do/516066/35 "2009-11-12T21:35:09Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > Tell that to the thousands of political prisoners that were being tortured in Saddam’s jails. Tell that to the tens of thousands we locked up and tortured once we got our paws on the country; to say nothing of the uncounted thousands we plain old killed in the conquest itself. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karzai-officially-president-what-will-obama-do/516066/36 "2009-11-13T00:53:31Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > Tell that to the thousands of political prisoners that were being tortured in Saddam’s jails. There are now thousands of people being tortured in Maliki’s jails. Even besides that Iraq was a total disaster for America. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karzai-officially-president-what-will-obama-do/516066/37 "2009-11-13T01:55:22Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > Tell that to the thousands of political prisoners that were being tortured in Saddam’s jails. And the ones in Abu Grebe too? Do you believe those numbers? is there any skepticism in America? ---
**Author:** ![Yersenia\_Pestis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e495f1/32.png) [@Yersenia\_Pestis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yersenia_Pestis)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2009, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karzai-officially-president-what-will-obama-do/516066/38 "2009-11-14T16:20:05Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Do you care about the people of Iraq? I think you see international politics (mostly warface) as a game, and you want to be on the biggest, strongest, baddest team. This attitude of taking war as a “game” is typical of those who never served in the military, which is the typical person of the far right. From someone who has been there twice, Iraq is like a country sized-Juarez, Mexico with all the violence, all the in-fighting between different factions, plus the nightmare of religious extremism. Baghdad is completely divided by barriers of concrete, the different neighborhoods walled off from each other. Hospitals, basic services (water and electricity) are precarious at best.. Its the kind of thing that you have to see to understand, war is hell and anyone who cheers for it would defecate on themselves if they actually seem its reality… ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2009, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karzai-officially-president-what-will-obama-do/516066/39 "2009-11-14T16:53:48Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Abu Grebe Waterboarded by a waterbird? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karzai-officially-president-what-will-obama-do/516066/40 "2009-11-15T20:39:04Z")
We3 lost the right to complain about Saddam torturing his prisoners, when we did the same damn thing. We felt it was immoral for him to do it and we had to stop him. Then we did it. So if someone wanted to stop us ,we would deserve it? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karzai-officially-president-what-will-obama-do/516066.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/karzai-officially-president-what-will-obama-do/516066.md?page=3)