# Kashrut question and some helal **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 22, 2006, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kashrut-question-and-some-helal/377449 "2006-10-22T16:10:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![caturday](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a87d85/32.png) [@caturday](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/caturday)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2006, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kashrut-question-and-some-helal/377449/1 "2006-10-22T16:10:33Z")
Exodus 23:19, Do not cook a kid in its’ mother’s milk. The reason why observant Jewish citizens don’t have cheeseburgers. Does this dictate extend to dishes which combine eggs and poultry? Also with helal food, do they also separate the dairy from the meat? What are the differences, if any, between kosher and helal food? ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2006, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kashrut-question-and-some-helal/377449/2 "2006-10-22T16:26:00Z")
I **am** a Jew, albeit not a very Observant one… (candidate for “Doper Understatement of the Year,” anyone? :D) So – I’ll try [QUOTE=caturday] Exodus 23:19, Do not cook a kid in its’ mother’s milk. The reason why observant Jewish citizens don’t have cheeseburgers. Does this dictate extend to dishes which combine eggs and poultry? [/quote] Eggs – No. Eggs are considered _parve_ (that is, neither meat nor dairy.) Poultry – Yes, although I’ve seen arguments that poultry **should** be permissible with dairy, but has been disallowed in order to prevent mistakes and misunderstandings. Fish, however (excluding _Treif de la Mer_ :), of course – that is, shellfish and various other fish that are considered non-kosher at all), are **not** considered meat, but rather _parve_, and can be and are eaten in diary meals. > [@](#): > > Also with helal food, do they also separate the dairy from the meat? IANAMuslim, but AFAIK there are no such restrictions in Islam. > [@](#): > > What are the differences, if any, between kosher and helal food? Many, many Halal foods (or combinations thereof) are non-Kosher. OTOH, the only Kosher foodstuff I am aware of that is not Halal is alcohol – otherwise Halal is pretty much (AFAIK) a subset of “Kosher” (and in fact I believe that in some places Muslims will buy meat from a Kosher butcher, if no Halal meatshop is available, safe in the knowledge that any meat that is Kosher is also, by definition, Halal) Hopefully more knowledgeable Jews than I, and actual Muslims, will come along and critique my answer shortly… ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2006, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kashrut-question-and-some-helal/377449/3 "2006-10-22T16:27:05Z")
It’s spelled halal, to help if you want to continue looking it up. Eggs and chicken do not need to be separated. Dairy is special in the kosher system a way that other products are not. Halal does not separate the two, however. [This page covers some practical differences](http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/week519/profile.html). ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2006, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kashrut-question-and-some-helal/377449/4 "2006-10-22T16:36:06Z")
[QUOTE=Noone Special] OTOH, the only Kosher foodstuff I am aware of that is not Halal is alcohol – otherwise Halal is pretty much (AFAIK) a subset of “Kosher” (and in fact I believe that in some places Muslims will buy meat from a Kosher butcher, if no Halal meatshop is available, safe in the knowledge that any meat that is Kosher is also, by definition, Halal) [/QUOTE] Kosher meats are not halal, because they weren’t killed properly by a Muslim. Many Muslims aren’t that strict about eating halal foods, but are strict about making sure that they don’t eat pork products, and that’s the reason that they would buy from a Kosher butcher. ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2006, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kashrut-question-and-some-helal/377449/5 "2006-10-22T16:41:04Z")
[QUOTE=x-ray vision] Kosher meats are not halal, because they weren’t killed properly by a Muslim. Many Muslims aren’t that strict about eating halal foods, but are strict about making sure that they don’t eat pork products, and that’s the reason that they would buy from a Kosher butcher. [/QUOTE] OK, thanks for the heads-up! I was not aware of this (not butchered by a Muslim == _Haram_) ---
**Author:** ![caturday](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a87d85/32.png) [@caturday](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/caturday)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2006, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kashrut-question-and-some-helal/377449/6 "2006-10-22T16:52:49Z")
[QUOTE=Exapno Mapcase] It’s spelled halal, to help if you want to continue looking it up. [/QUOTE] African-American please, it’s not spelled either way. You have to use Arabic to correctly spell the term. Less pedantry and more signal. The point of my question was meant to be “Why is it wrong to mix milk with meat but it’s not okay to mix eggs with the layers of the eggs?” o\_O So it’s okay to cook their young’ns with their parents? Shuldna dun dat, he wuz jus a boy. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2006, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kashrut-question-and-some-helal/377449/7 "2006-10-22T19:55:07Z")
[QUOTE=caturday] African-American please, it’s not spelled either way. You have to use Arabic to correctly spell the term. Less pedantry and more signal. [/quote] **EM** wasn’t being pedantic. He mentioned that the reason he corrected your spelling was to help you search further if you were interested in learning more about halal foods. BTW, the answers to your questions are easily Googlable. [QUOTE=caturday] The point of my question was meant to be “Why is it wrong to mix milk with meat but it’s not okay to mix eggs with the layers of the eggs?” o\_O [/quote] Apples and oranges. What connection do you see between milk and eggs? > **[Kashrut](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashrut)** > > Kashrut (also kashruth or kashrus, Hebrew: .mw-parser-output .script-hebrew,.mw-parser-output .script-Hebr{font-family:"Ezra SIL SR","Ezra SIL","SBL Hebrew","Taamey Frank CLM","SBL BibLit","Taamey Ashkenaz","Frank Ruehl CLM","Keter Aram Tsova","Taamey David CLM","Keter YG","Shofar","David CLM","Hadasim CLM","Simple CLM","Nachlieli",Cardo,Alef,"Noto Serif Hebrew","Noto Sans Hebrew","David Libre",David,"Times New Roman",Gisha,Arial,FreeSerif,FreeSans}כַּשְׁרוּת) is a set of dietary laws dealing w... > [@](#): > > To some degree, the prohibition on combining milk with meat represents a symbolic separation between death, represented by the flesh of a dead animal, and life, represented by the milk required to sustain a newborn creature. The often-quoted humane component to this law is also of symbolic value; the Torah prohibits ‘seething the kid (goat, sheep, calf) in its mother’s milk’, a practice cruel only in concept, which would not be understood as cruelty by either the kid or its mother and would not cause them additional suffering; but which could still potentially inflame a human’s taste for ultimate power over those creatures who are weaker. Thus, Kashrut prohibits the practice itself, even if the resulting mixture is to be discarded. [QUOTE=caturday] So it’s okay to cook their young’ns with their parents? [/quote] Yes. ---
**Author:** ![yBeayf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e274bd/32.png) [@yBeayf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yBeayf)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2006, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kashrut-question-and-some-helal/377449/8 "2006-10-22T20:17:50Z")
> [@](#): > > Kosher meats are not halal, because they weren’t killed properly by a Muslim. “Halal” just means “permitted”. Kosher meat is halal, as it fulfills all the requirements of halal slaughter and because meat slaughtered by People of the Book is explicitly considered halal. ---
**Author:** ![yBeayf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e274bd/32.png) [@yBeayf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yBeayf)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2006, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kashrut-question-and-some-helal/377449/9 "2006-10-22T20:19:18Z")
> [@](#): > > I was not aware of this (not butchered by a Muslim == Haram) Just to re-clarify: this is false. Even by the strictest guidelines on what is halal and what is not, kosher meat is halal. ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2006, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kashrut-question-and-some-helal/377449/10 "2006-10-22T20:33:01Z")
[QUOTE=yBeayf] Just to re-clarify: this is false. Even by the strictest guidelines on what is halal and what is not, kosher meat is halal. [/QUOTE] Thank you for helping me preserve what is left of my sanity 🙂 I remembered similarly that all Kosher meat was, pretty much by definition, also _halal_, but was willing to acknowledge that I was in no way an authority. So I was right after all? ---
**Author:** ![yBeayf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e274bd/32.png) [@yBeayf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yBeayf)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2006, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kashrut-question-and-some-helal/377449/11 "2006-10-22T20:49:41Z")
> [@](#): > > I remembered similarly that all Kosher meat was, pretty much by definition, also halal, but was willing to acknowledge that I was in no way an authority. So I was right after all? Yep. Otherwise halal meat slaughtered according to the regulations of People of the Book is by definition halal, and any species of animal permitted under kashrus is permitted to Muslims, no matter what tradition they’re following. The only kosher food that isn’t permitted to Muslims is alcohol. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2006, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kashrut-question-and-some-helal/377449/12 "2006-10-22T20:49:55Z")
[QUOTE=yBeayf] “Halal” just means “permitted”. Kosher meat is halal, as it fulfills all the requirements of halal slaughter and because meat slaughtered by People of the Book is explicitly considered halal. [/QUOTE] I have never seen meat labled as being both kosher and halal. Some kosher meats are prepared with alcohol, and that is not halal. Unless the meat is to be consumed in hardship cases, halal meats must fulfill this requirement (among others): > [@](#): > > The act of slaughter (Al-Dhabh) starts by pronouncing the name of ALLAH (s.w.t), The Creator (BISMILLAH ALLAHU AKBAR ), to take His permission and in order to make the Slaughter-man accountable and responsible and to give compassion and mercy to the animal during this act. Besides, any action we do in our daily life should be commenced with the mention of the name of ALLAH (s.w.t ) The Most Kind, The Most Merciful. Also: > [@](#): > > The head and front of the animal should be directed towards Qibla. (i.e towards Makkah)\* [http://www.azhar.jp/info/halal-eng/halal5.html](http://www.azhar.jp/info/halal-eng/halal5.html) ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2006, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kashrut-question-and-some-helal/377449/13 "2006-10-22T20:54:47Z")
One more link: [http://www.albalagh.net/halal/kosher\_meat.shtml](http://www.albalagh.net/halal/kosher_meat.shtml) ---
**Author:** ![yBeayf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e274bd/32.png) [@yBeayf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yBeayf)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2006, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kashrut-question-and-some-helal/377449/14 "2006-10-22T23:34:59Z")
> [@](#): > > Some kosher meats are prepared with alcohol, and that is not halal. If such is the case, it is the alcohol that is haram and not the meat itself. > [@](#): > > Unless the meat is to be consumed in hardship cases, halal meats must fulfill this requirement (among others): > > > [@](#): > > > > The act of slaughter (Al-Dhabh) starts by pronouncing the name of ALLAH (s.w.t), The Creator (BISMILLAH ALLAHU AKBAR ), to take His permission and in order to make the Slaughter-man accountable and responsible and to give compassion and mercy to the animal during this act. Besides, any action we do in our daily life should be commenced with the mention of the name of ALLAH (s.w.t ) The Most Kind, The Most Merciful. Such is sunnah, and not fard. Per _`Umdat as-Salik_, “The necessary condition for slaughtering any animal which is within one’s capacity to slaughter is to cut both the windpipe and the gullet”. Per the Qur’an itself, 5.5: > [@](#): > > This day are (all) things good and pure made lawful unto you. The food of the People of the Book is lawful unto you and yours is lawful unto them. Per Sahih Bukhari, 7.67.415: > [@](#): > > Narrated 'Aisha: > > A group of people said to the Prophet, “Some people bring us meat and we do not know whether they have mentioned Allah’s Name or not on slaughtering the animal.” He said, “Mention Allah’s Name on it and eat.” Those people had embraced Islam recently. Your cites don’t back up their assertions on this subject, and the first cite didn’t use enough colors, either. ---
**Author:** ![GingerOfTheNorth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/cdc98d/32.png) [@GingerOfTheNorth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GingerOfTheNorth)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2006, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kashrut-question-and-some-helal/377449/15 "2006-10-22T23:48:14Z")
To clarify, does People of the Book, mean Jews? ---
**Author:** ![yBeayf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e274bd/32.png) [@yBeayf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yBeayf)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2006, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kashrut-question-and-some-helal/377449/16 "2006-10-23T00:04:25Z")
> [@](#): > > To clarify, does People of the Book, mean Jews? The strictest definition is Jews, Christians, and Sabians (whoever they were, nobody is really sure) – people who worshipped Allah and had received a revelation at some point. Later Zoroastrians were sorta added to the category, though not without reservation, and when it comes to marrying them and eating their food a lot of authorities don’t permit it. Even later Hindus were nod-nod-wink-winked into the category for the purposes of taxation, so the jizya could be extracted from them, but there’s even more reservations about them than about the Zoroastrians. When “People of the Book” is mentioned it almost always refers to the first three groups mentioned. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2006, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kashrut-question-and-some-helal/377449/17 "2006-10-23T00:53:34Z")
[QUOTE=yBeayf] If such is the case, it is the alcohol that is haram and not the meat itself. [/quote] That’s nonsensical. The OP asked, “What are the differences, if any, between kosher and helal food?” Once the food has been prepared with alcohol, the food may be kosher, but not halal. This should be enough evidence alone that kosher food is not necessarily halal. [QUOTE=yBeayf] Your cites don’t back up their assertions on this subject, and the first cite didn’t use enough colors, either. [/QUOTE] What more do you want? You said earlier: Just to re-clarify: this is false. **Even by the strictest guidelines on what is halal and what is not** , kosher meat is halal. I think these cites clearly show your above statement to be false. Here’s another site describing Shariah law that millions of Muslims follow: [http://www.iccservices.org.uk/halal\_food\_meat/what\_is\_halal\_haram.htm](http://www.iccservices.org.uk/halal_food_meat/what_is_halal_haram.htm) > [@](#): > > The slaughterman must be mature and pious Muslim of sound mind who understands fully the fundamentals and conditions relating to Halal slaughter and be approved by the religious authorities and the Meat Hygiene Services > > The Muslim slaughterman says first: in the name of Allah, Allah is greater(Bismillah, Allah Akbar) As far as your one quote, pay attention to the last sentence: > [@](#): > > Narrated 'Aisha: > > A group of people said to the Prophet, “Some people bring us meat and we do not know whether they have mentioned Allah’s Name or not on slaughtering the animal.” He said, “Mention Allah’s Name on it and eat.” **Those people had embraced Islam recently.** ---
**Author:** ![yBeayf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e274bd/32.png) [@yBeayf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yBeayf)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2006, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kashrut-question-and-some-helal/377449/18 "2006-10-23T01:05:59Z")
> [@](#): > > Once the food has been prepared with alcohol, the food may be kosher, but not halal. This should be enough evidence alone that kosher food is not necessarily halal. I said, _with the exception of alcohol_, kosher food is halal. If a dish is prepared according to kashrus and it contains alcohol, _everything_ in that dish is halal except for the alcohol. Except for alcohol, shari’ah as it relates to food does not prohibit anything that kashrus does not also prohibit. > [@](#): > > Just to re-clarify: this is false. Even by the strictest guidelines on what is halal and what is not, kosher meat is halal. > > I think these cites clearly show your above statement to be false. Those cites are worthless, as they do not cite either their reasoning from the sources, or what authority they are relying on, so we have no way of judging the soundness of their conclusions. A random webpage is not a reputable cite. If you’re going to claim that reciting Bismillah is **fard** when slaughtering, and not just sunnah, you’re going to need something better than that, since I have already quoted a reliable source that disagrees with you. > [@](#): > > As far as your one quote, pay attention to the last sentence: The last sentence is not the point of the hadith. The point of the hadith is that even when it is unclear whether Bismillah has been recited or not over the meat when it was slaughtered, it is still permissible to eat. If we have some meat slaughtered by a Muslim in accordance with shari’ah, we know the meat has had the name of Allah pronounced over it already. If it is slaughtered by a Jew according to the rules of kashrus, it may or may not have had the name of Allah pronounced over it, but since according to Surah 5.5 the food of the Jews is permissible to Muslims, and since per that hadith food is permissible even if it is unclear whether the name of Allah has been said over it or not, then that meat is halal. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2006, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kashrut-question-and-some-helal/377449/19 "2006-10-23T01:36:28Z")
[QUOTE=yBeayf] I said, _with the exception of alcohol_, kosher food is halal. If a dish is prepared according to kashrus and it contains alcohol, _everything_ in that dish is halal except for the alcohol. [/quote] You can’t seperate the alcohol from the food. Once alcohol touches food, it’s not halal. End of story! [QUOTE=yBeayf] Those cites are worthless, as they do not cite either their reasoning from the sources, or what authority they are relying on, so we have no way of judging the soundness of their conclusions. [/quote] A cite that recites Shariah law is worthless to you? The one random site was the Islamic Cultural Centre and The London Central Mosque. I think that should be enough evidence that “Even by the strictest guidelines on what is halal and what is not, kosher meat is halal.” is an inaccurrate statement. [QUOTE=yBeayf] The last sentence is not the point of the hadith. [/QUOTE] So the last sentence is meaningless? it makes sense that Muhammad would have said this for a reason, not just as an aside. I’ll stop arguing with you now; I made my case. ---
**Author:** ![yBeayf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e274bd/32.png) [@yBeayf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yBeayf)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2006, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kashrut-question-and-some-helal/377449/20 "2006-10-23T02:30:39Z")
> [@](#): > > You can’t seperate the alcohol from the food. Once alcohol touches food, it’s not halal. End of story! If every molecule of alcohol could be removed from the food, the food would become halal again. Just because something has once come into contact with najasa does not mean that thing is forever unclean. > [@](#): > > A cite that recites Shariah law is worthless to you? The one random site was the Islamic Cultural Centre and The London Central Mosque. It says nothing about whether reciting Bismillah is fard or not, and it doesn’t say where it draws its information from. You know as well as I do that anybody can state their opinion on what shari’ah is, but without backing, that opinion means absolutely nothing. > [@](#): > > So the last sentence is meaningless? it makes sense that Muhammad would have said this for a reason, not just as an aside. Did you even read the hadith? Muhammad didn’t say that; `A’ishah did. It was part of the narration, not a quote from Muhammad, and was an explanation as to why it was unknown whether the people slaughtering the animals had pronounced the Bismillah or not. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kashrut-question-and-some-helal/377449.md?page=2)