# Kate Fox's analysis of English culture: Does it jibe with your experience? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 7, 2010, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kate-foxs-analysis-of-english-culture-does-it-jibe-with-your-experience/542334 "2010-06-07T20:28:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Baboonanza](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f475e1/32.png) [@Baboonanza](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baboonanza)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kate-foxs-analysis-of-english-culture-does-it-jibe-with-your-experience/542334/21 "2010-06-07T22:57:02Z")
Some of her observations do have a ring of truth about them, but they are considerably exaggerated. I don’t really understand why Americans would find the idea of pub etiquette strange, it’s a social meeting place and the ‘rules’ are observed so that everyone can have a nice time. For example, if 2 women are sat at a table talking they don’t want every horny man coming up and trying to hit on them and to do so would be very rude. A complaint I’ve actually heard about American bars is that in the same situation the ladies wouldn’t get any peace. It should also be noted that pubs serve a different function than bars in the UK, bars are a comparably recent import and more akin to their American counterparts whereas the traditional pub is a place for friends to meet and have drinks (a bit like a coffee shop, but with more pissed people). And why would you want everyone shouting at the bar tender? Mabye there isn’t an unwritten rule, but we all realise that it’s just unpleasant behaviour? And if we’re doing generalisations many Brits find American’s to be overly loud, somewhat boarish and overly-familiar with strangers (though I wouldn’t say impolite). But then my fiancee and I had a nice romantic meal to the sound of an American couple’s idiotic self-aggrandizing last night so maybe I’m just being sour 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kate-foxs-analysis-of-english-culture-does-it-jibe-with-your-experience/542334/22 "2010-06-07T23:06:08Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > You don’t really think this is unique to British pubs, do you? To pick the easiest example, how many American restaurants have instructions about how to tip? > > And I don’t spend much time in bars, so maybe I’m just clueless here, but how does the British custom of serving people at the bar differ from the US custom of serving people at the bar? What’s being described for a UK pub doesn’t sound any different from what happens at an American bar. I think American tipping is a horrible custom. But these days if you pay with a card it does ask you to fill in the tip. if you’re sitting at a table, a server will come over to get your order. If you’re at the bar and it’s crowded you usually have to tell the barkeeper that you want to order because you could just be hanging out talking to someone. In either case you aren’t restricted to a few subtle gestures to get the server’s attention, which is what Fox described. > [@Tapioca\_Dextrin](#): > > I guess you’re right, but isn’t the notion of tipping the barman a piece of secret knowledge that a foreign tourist to the US wouldn’t know? ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kate-foxs-analysis-of-english-culture-does-it-jibe-with-your-experience/542334/23 "2010-06-07T23:06:13Z")
> [@Zoinks](#): > > New Yorkers cheerfully butt in on the conversations of strangers, in the subway or anywhere else. They’re not trying to be rude, most of the time they’re trying to be helpful. I never minded when that happened to me, different places have different mores. Helpful? Do you mean giving directions or something? That would happen here too. I can’t see how butting in would be helpful otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kate-foxs-analysis-of-english-culture-does-it-jibe-with-your-experience/542334/24 "2010-06-07T23:25:44Z")
> [@scifisam2009](#): > > Oh, and you don’t speak to strangers on the tube because there are _far too many of them_. Do New Yorkers spend their entire tube journey saying ‘hi, how are you’ to their fellow travellers? I doubt it. Even making the effort to make eye contact with everyone and give a friendly nod would mean you spent your entire time doing that, which would be incredibly dull. it’s like any other public place. you’re not obligated to acknowledge or speak to everyone, but you’re free to if you want. If you sit right next to someone it would be rude not to at least smile as you take your seat. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kate-foxs-analysis-of-english-culture-does-it-jibe-with-your-experience/542334/25 "2010-06-07T23:44:21Z")
Perhaps part of the difference is that people won’t sit at a bar if it’s busy. Then if it’s quiet, and it’s not clear that they want a drink (if they still have a full drink), then they _will_ verbally ask the barperson (by name or just calling out excuse me). They don’t have to sit there waggling their eyebrows and hoping that the barperson’s telepathic. It’s funny that, legally, I guess she can’t admit that lock-ins exist or that lots of landlords will serve you after official licensing hours. Hence this: > [@](#): > > Official rules: By law, pubs are not allowed to open until 11am (noon on Sundays). They cannot serve drinks after 11pm (10.30 on Sundays) - although you are allowed 20 minutes to finish any drinks already purchased. In Scotland pubs generally open until midnight. **Do not even try to get served outside these legal ‘licensing hours’.** It is also illegal for pubs to serve alcoholic drinks to anyone under the age of 18, and you will be breaking the law if you try to buy an alcoholic drink for anyone who is under 18. Presumably that was written before the licensing changes - there are a lot more 24-hour licences now. It’s also wrong about minors - 16 and 17 year olds are allowed to have wine, beer or cider with a meal, and it has to be ordered by the adults with them. That law’s been the case for many years, and lots of pubs serve food. So some of the factual stuff is wrong. > [@acsenray](#): > > it’s like any other public place. you’re not obligated to acknowledge or speak to everyone, but you’re free to if you want. If you sit right next to someone it would be rude not to at least smile as you take your seat. But if you speak to other people then you _are_ obligating them to chat when there are, frankly, much better things to be doing with your journey than talking to a stranger. I can see how smiling at the person next to you might seem polite, but perhaps not so much when the seats are so close together that you are often physically touching. ---
**Author:** ![Baboonanza](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f475e1/32.png) [@Baboonanza](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baboonanza)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kate-foxs-analysis-of-english-culture-does-it-jibe-with-your-experience/542334/26 "2010-06-07T23:47:11Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > it’s like any other public place. you’re not obligated to acknowledge or speak to everyone, but you’re free to if you want. If you sit right next to someone it would be rude not to at least smile as you take your seat. True, but with the proviso that if you are in a position where it is not possible for someone to excuse themselves politely from a conversation if they don’t want to talk (like a lift or tube train) you need to be careful about starting conversations. Anybody who has sat next to some weirdo who continually attempts to talk to you can confirm this. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kate-foxs-analysis-of-english-culture-does-it-jibe-with-your-experience/542334/27 "2010-06-08T00:22:15Z")
FWIW, the rest of the pub stuff is mostly true, if somewhat outdated - for example, the section on food in pubs. These days it won’t necessarily be simple fare; it might be all Thai, or Mongolian, or just really really good food. Staff often get the money for the drinks, too, not the drinks themselves, if you buy them a drink as a form of tip. But still, the thing is, when you microanalyse any social situation like that, ir can start to seem as if everyone’s tiptoeing on eggshells following millions of rules. In reality all social situations have rules, and you can often work them out even if they’re not the same as in similar places back home. Take the ‘rule’ about not having every single person go up to the bar at once - it’s fairly obvious that doing so would create ridiculously crowded and confusing situation; you’d either work it out from the start or remember it easily once you’ve learnt it. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kate-foxs-analysis-of-english-culture-does-it-jibe-with-your-experience/542334/28 "2010-06-08T01:09:52Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > I think American tipping is a horrible custom. But these days if you pay with a card it does ask you to fill in the tip. The practicality of tipping aside, the point is American businesses also have their “unwritten rules,” just like UK businesses, just like businesses in every other nation on Earth. The UK isn’t anomalous in this, it’s just got a slightly different set of unwritten rules than we do. You’re going to run into the same problem if you travel anywhere, even if you’re traveling within the US. That’s kind of the point of traveling, isn’t it? > [@](#): > > if you’re sitting at a table, a server will come over to get your order. If you’re at the bar and it’s crowded you usually have to tell the barkeeper that you want to order because you could just be hanging out talking to someone. In either case you aren’t restricted to a few subtle gestures to get the server’s attention, which is what Fox described. Again, not a big bar goer here, so I might be talking out of my ass, but I’m still not really seeing the difference. If I’m at the bar and it’s crowded, I’ve generally had to make some sort of a signal or gesture to get the bartender’s attention - a nod, a raised hand, something like that. Eye contact, if nothing else. This sounds exactly like what’s being described in UK pubs. What am I missing, here? ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kate-foxs-analysis-of-english-culture-does-it-jibe-with-your-experience/542334/29 "2010-06-08T01:33:30Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > Well, that’s a given, really. It’s also a point that Fox makes repeatedly. However, given the choice, I would rather not exist in that kind of atmosphere. I like a more straightforward approach without so many implicit restrictions on behavior. > > After all, it’s a service establishment. Why should you have to “know what you’re doing”? They’re selling; I’m buying. It shouldn’t require secret knowledge. Have you ever tried to get into a popular nightclub in the US? Just standing in line may not do the trick. You’re fooling yourself if you don’t think there are unwritten rules for social interactions everywhere. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kate-foxs-analysis-of-english-culture-does-it-jibe-with-your-experience/542334/30 "2010-06-08T01:45:16Z")
Well, perhaps you won’t get the full picture of why it seems so different without reading Fox. Here is just one of the things she says: > [@](#): > > The rules of English pub-talk regulate non-verbal as well as verbal communication—in fact, some of them actively prohibit use of the verbal medium, such as the pantomime rule Bar staff do their best to ensure that everyone is served in proper turn, but it is still necessary to attract their attention and make them aware that one is waiting to be served. There is, however, a strict etiquette involved in attracting the attention of bar staff: **this _must_ be done without speaking** , without making any noise and without resorting to the vulgarity of **obvious gesticulation**. > > The prescribed approach is best described as a sort of subtle pantomime …. The object is to make eye contact with the barman. **But calling out to him is not permitted, and almost _all other obvious means_ of attracting attention** , such as tapping coins on teh counter, snapping fingers or waving are equally frowned upon. > > It is acceptable to let bar staff know one is waiting to be served by holding money or an empty glass in one’s hand. The pantomime rule allows us to tilt the empty glass, or perhaps turn it slowly in a circular motion …. The etiquette here is frighteningly precise: it is permitted to perch one’s elbow on the bar, for example, with either money or an empty glass in a raised hand, but not to raise one’s whole arm and wave the note or glass around. If this description is accurate, it’s a lot different than etiquette surrounding ordering a drink at an American bar. I suppose snapping your fingers is considered rude here too, but given the degree of crowdedness and noise, you are free to use whatever means are necessary to get the barkeeper’s attention, so long as your words aren’t overtly demeaning or insulting. The description above seems to virtually guarantee that the natural inclinations of someone not acquainted with English pub culture will be considered rude by English standards when he or she tries to get a drink at the bar. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kate-foxs-analysis-of-english-culture-does-it-jibe-with-your-experience/542334/31 "2010-06-08T01:46:44Z")
> [@Ferret\_Herder](#): > > Have you ever tried to get into a popular nightclub in the US? Just standing in line may not do the trick. You’re fooling yourself if you don’t think there are unwritten rules for social interactions everywhere. It’s not a question of rules being in existence. In Fox’s description, the rules are quite strict. There may be rules in American culture, but there is a lot more leeway than the impression that Fox creates for English culture. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kate-foxs-analysis-of-english-culture-does-it-jibe-with-your-experience/542334/32 "2010-06-08T01:50:53Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > The practicality of tipping aside, the point is American businesses also have their “unwritten rules,” just like UK businesses, just like businesses in every other nation on Earth. The UK isn’t anomalous in this, it’s just got a slightly different set of unwritten rules than we do. You’re going to run into the same problem if you travel anywhere, even if you’re traveling within the US. That’s kind of the point of traveling, isn’t it? Again, it’s not the existence of rules that’s the issue, but the impression that Fox creates that the range of behavior that is considered acceptable is much more narrow than in American culture. And it’s not a question of travel either. As a traveller, I’m not too bothered about making the occasional faux pas. I’m saying that if Fox’s descriptions are accurate, I’d be a lot less enthusiastic about living as a member of English society. ---
**Author:** ![Leiko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Leiko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leiko)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kate-foxs-analysis-of-english-culture-does-it-jibe-with-your-experience/542334/33 "2010-06-08T01:52:19Z")
> [@Driver8](#): > > Wait - isn’t this how bars everywhere work? I don’t think I’ve ever seen a normal queue in a bar environment. The only bar I go to regularly (Jake’s, in Olympia, WA) has a normal line-up queue at the bar, or two when there are two bartenders working. But that’s a queer bar in Oly, so maybe it works differently than other bars. I don’t really know; I don’t go out much. ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kate-foxs-analysis-of-english-culture-does-it-jibe-with-your-experience/542334/34 "2010-06-08T01:54:19Z")
I’ve always been accompanied by Americans when in the US, so I’ve been lucky - but the US is certainly just as full of unwritten local rules as the UK and, I suspect, every other country on the planet. There’s nothing wrong with these unwritten social rules; and you’d be unusual if you didn’t prefer the unwritten social rules you take for granted at home over those you don’t know in a foreign country. The social rules exist because the society in question collectively creates them over a period of time in a slow, organic fashion. It would be utterly bizarre if the US and the UK, or anywhere else, managed to independently develop in exactly the same way. A lot of people do feel a little out of their depth in foreign countries. That’s fine. And, frankly, if it’s clear you’re a foreign tourist, people make exceptions for you whoever you are and wherever you are. > [@](#): > > I’m saying that if Fox’s descriptions are accurate, I’d be a lot less enthusiastic about living as a member of English society. And that, too, is fine! I’d be agog with amazement if you preferred the idea of living as a member of a foreign society to the one you’re acclimatized to. I feel the same way, vice versa. It’s not a judgement; just a preference. The “rules” (I wish she hadn’t kept using that word - “tendencies” and “traditions” are much better and more accurate words) - are there for us, not for you. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kate-foxs-analysis-of-english-culture-does-it-jibe-with-your-experience/542334/35 "2010-06-08T01:59:23Z")
Oh, and they’re not nearly as strict as she’s making out. Her examples are the way it’s typically done, but frankly the only real rule is: don’t be an asshole (which I’m sure you wouldn’t be). ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kate-foxs-analysis-of-english-culture-does-it-jibe-with-your-experience/542334/36 "2010-06-08T02:09:15Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > It’s not a question of rules being in existence. In Fox’s description, the rules are quite strict. There may be rules in American culture, but there is a lot more leeway than the impression that Fox creates for English culture. Or they may simply be more arbitrary, which is [not always beneficial](http://cephalicfurrow.wordpress.com/2010/05/19/a-very-good-paragraph/), as it gives leeway for rules to be bent in favor of the already high-status. In general, vigorous social status-seeking is pretty universal. It seems like Fox has made a good go of calling out certain particularly British variations on the theme, but just because we don’t recognize the particular rules doesn’t mean we don’t follow such rules, or that ours are any less strict or arbitrary. For a quite modern-sounding American counterpart, I’d recommend Paul Fussell’s [Class](http://www.amazon.com/Class-Through-American-Status-System/dp/0671792253/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1275962926&sr=8-1). ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kate-foxs-analysis-of-english-culture-does-it-jibe-with-your-experience/542334/37 "2010-06-08T02:15:26Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > It’s not a question of rules being in existence. In Fox’s description, the rules are quite strict. There may be rules in American culture, but there is a lot more leeway than the impression that Fox creates for English culture. But you’re saying that, if you’re at a bar in the US and you don’t make a point of calling out to the bartender, then you probably won’t get served. _That’s a rule too._ It’s kinda like when you learn a foreign language and it seems as if the foreign language is a lot more rule-bound than yours. It’s not really, it’s just that you’re so used to your own language’s rules that you don’t notice them, and you are a skilled enough user of the language that you can intentionally ‘break’ the rules pretty confidently on occasion. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kate-foxs-analysis-of-english-culture-does-it-jibe-with-your-experience/542334/38 "2010-06-08T02:26:00Z")
> [@Candyman74](#): > > Oh, and they’re not nearly as strict as she’s making out. Her examples are the way it’s typically done, but frankly the only real rule is: don’t be an asshole (which I’m sure you wouldn’t be). This was my suspicion. I’m relieved that this is the case. > [@scifisam2009](#): > > But you’re saying that, if you’re at a bar in the US and you don’t make a point of calling out to the bartender, then you probably won’t get served. _That’s a rule too._ That’s not a rule in the same way. You wouldn’t be thought a boor for it. And I’m sure you’d start trying more overt means of getting attention, right? And that would be okay too. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kate-foxs-analysis-of-english-culture-does-it-jibe-with-your-experience/542334/39 "2010-06-08T02:27:35Z")
> [@bonzer](#): > > Her online [Passport to the Pub](http://www.sirc.org/publik/pub.html) is the original version of her observations on pub etiquette. > > In that instance, her points are broadly true, provided you make allowances for them being generalisations and her tone deliberately light. After reading this thread, I started wondering if I was a complete insufferable tourist the first time i went to England. Reading Fox’s piece, though, I realize that none of these landmines are really all that serious. They seem to boil down to: “Act as if you were a guest in someone’s house”. Be polite, don’t show your ass, and you’ll be fine. Maybe being raised in the deep South is an advantage in this respect, since she describes basic politeness in public. Made me realize that no, in fact, I was not an insufferable tourist. I did fine. What I do find strange, though, is the very arrogant tone of Fox’s article. It pretty much assumes that any tourists reading her guide are utter, utter morons. Oh, so only regulars get to take the piss out of the staff? Why, that’s NOTHING like the US, where any perfect stranger walking in and screaming about shitty service is treated like royalty. Keee-rist. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kate-foxs-analysis-of-english-culture-does-it-jibe-with-your-experience/542334/40 "2010-06-08T02:27:55Z")
In fact, as detailed as Fox’s analysis is, I’m wondering to what extent much of it is either (1) exaggerated or (2) in practice no different from many other places. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kate-foxs-analysis-of-english-culture-does-it-jibe-with-your-experience/542334.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kate-foxs-analysis-of-english-culture-does-it-jibe-with-your-experience/542334.md?page=3)