# Kate Fox's analysis of English culture: Does it jibe with your experience? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 7, 2010, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kate-foxs-analysis-of-english-culture-does-it-jibe-with-your-experience/542334 "2010-06-07T20:28:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kate-foxs-analysis-of-english-culture-does-it-jibe-with-your-experience/542334/41 "2010-06-08T02:34:00Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > In fact, as detailed as Fox’s analysis is, I’m wondering to what extent much of it is either (1) exaggerated or (2) in practice no different from many other places. Me too. Especially #2. ---
**Author:** ![Pyper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Pyper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pyper)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kate-foxs-analysis-of-english-culture-does-it-jibe-with-your-experience/542334/42 "2010-06-08T02:40:19Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > The English, according to Fox, are desperately afraid of embarrassment and thus find it extremely difficult to engage with strangers, unless given certain excuses, in the form of intoxication related to certain social occasions (holidays, etc.). Not only do they cling to privacy, **but they also have made anything approaching earnestness into a faux pas.** I don’t know anything about pub behavior, but this last part really rings true for me. I remember visiting an English friend in London and he was telling me a story about another English friend who had encountered an American. The American was telling the English guy about the former’s screenwriting endeavors. The English guy feigned interest and made many deadpan sarcastic remarks, but the American never caught on that the Englishman was “taking the piss.” My English friend framed this story as, “haha, look at this ridiculous American, he can’t even tell when he’s being made fun of!” I, however, did not find this funny at all. Why even make fun of him in the first place? Was it because he was hinting at his own success? What made him a target for ridicule? It seemed to me to be very horrible to be an English person and always have to be on the look out for someone feigning interest in what you’re saying, but really making fun of you to your face. It strikes me as a nasty way to be going about your life. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kate-foxs-analysis-of-english-culture-does-it-jibe-with-your-experience/542334/43 "2010-06-08T02:46:10Z")
> [@Pyper](#): > > I don’t know anything about pub behavior, but this last part really rings true for me. I remember visiting an English friend in London and he was telling me a story about another English friend who had encountered an American. The American was telling the English guy about the former’s screenwriting endeavors. The English guy feigned interest and made many deadpan sarcastic remarks, but the American never caught on that the Englishman was “taking the piss.” > > My English friend framed this story as, “haha, look at this ridiculous American, he can’t even tell when he’s being made fun of!” I, however, did not find this funny at all. Why even make fun of him in the first place? Was it because he was hinting at his own success? What made him a target for ridicule? It seemed to me to be very horrible to be an English person and always have to be on the look out for someone feigning interest in what you’re saying, but really making fun of you to your face. It strikes me as a nasty way to be going about your life. I don’t know if this is a London thing, but I stayed for a number of nights in Gamlingay, about 40 or so miles north of London. The people there were perfectly sincere, friendly, polite folks. They bought me many free drinks, showed me the countryside, invited me for dinner, and generally treated me like a friend. I doubt very seriously that I’m so tone-deaf to sarcasm that I missed out on the huge, sophisticated joke on the gullible tourist when I was outside drinking with the locals and chatting up pretty girls at the barn dance. ---
**Author:** ![Duke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Duke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kate-foxs-analysis-of-english-culture-does-it-jibe-with-your-experience/542334/44 "2010-06-08T02:53:13Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > What I do find strange, though, is the very arrogant tone of Fox’s article. It pretty much assumes that any tourists reading her guide are utter, utter morons. Oh, so only regulars get to take the piss out of the staff? Why, that’s NOTHING like the US, where any perfect stranger walking in and screaming about shitty service is treated like royalty. Keee-rist. :rolleyes: Yes, I get that sense as well. I lived in the UK for seven years after growing up in the US, and, no, the UK and US are simply not as different as Fox makes them out to be. Why, just last week I was in what the British would call my “local,” and the drink-ordering process was almost no different from any place I ever went in the UK. And the British don’t like talking about money? Americans, go ahead, ask the person in the office next to you how much money they make…I’m sure they’d welcome your question with open arms. The truth is, and it doesn’t flatter me to say it, if someone so introverted and socially inept as myself can move to the UK and become completely acclimatized within a few months, the social difference between the US and the UK just can’t be that great. In the UK I knew people from other countries in Europe, India or Pakistan, or even somewhere like South Africa who were having a much harder time fitting in, even if they didn’t have a language barrier. I mean, less than a year after I got to the UK people stopped asking me where I was from…well, except to ask what part of Wales I might be from. I experienced more culture shock moving from California to New York state. Lastly, I get the sense that a lot of what Fox talks about as the social norms of England are starting to die out. Much of what she says is applicable to the older generation–the generation of my ex-father-in-law, who was almost painfully shy and fits much of what Fox writes about perfectly–and to rural England, and not to people my age or who live in a city of any decent size. You just can’t point to people in general in the UK–or anywhere else for that matter–and say, “There, that’s how people in that country act.” Is there a group of people in the UK who act like Fox describes? Sure. Does that group make up the vast majority, or even a significant portion, of the country? No. ---
**Author:** ![Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tapioca_Dextrin)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kate-foxs-analysis-of-english-culture-does-it-jibe-with-your-experience/542334/45 "2010-06-08T02:53:17Z")
I might be veering sideways, but these kind of social faux pas are easy to make, even when you think you know what you’re doing. I was in France last year. I love the country, I spend a lot of time there, I can speak the language and I’m comfortable there. So, I went to a restaurant and ate a really good meal. No problems. I paid and left a decent (by French standards) good tip. But it was early and I was bored, so I shuffled off the attached bar for a nightcap. And I couldn’t got served. Obviously, I’d transgressed an unwritten rule, but no one told me which one it was. C’est la vie. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kate-foxs-analysis-of-english-culture-does-it-jibe-with-your-experience/542334/46 "2010-06-08T02:53:39Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > That’s not a rule in the same way. You wouldn’t be thought a boor for it. And I’m sure you’d start trying more overt means of getting attention, right? And that would be okay too. No, you’d be thought an idiot, and you wouldn’t get the drink you were seeking. It’s a social rule. > [@Pyper](#): > > I don’t know anything about pub behavior, but this last part really rings true for me. I remember visiting an English friend in London and he was telling me a story about another English friend who had encountered an American. The American was telling the English guy about the former’s screenwriting endeavors. The English guy feigned interest and made many deadpan sarcastic remarks, but the American never caught on that the Englishman was “taking the piss.” > > My English friend framed this story as, “haha, look at this ridiculous American, he can’t even tell when he’s being made fun of!” I, however, did not find this funny at all. Why even make fun of him in the first place? Was it because he was hinting at his own success? What made him a target for ridicule? It seemed to me to be very horrible to be an English person and always have to be on the look out for someone feigning interest in what you’re saying, but really making fun of you to your face. It strikes me as a nasty way to be going about your life. Yes, it would be really horrible living like that. Fortunately, nobody does, even in horrible, rude, shy, rule-bound England. ---
**Author:** ![Pyper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Pyper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pyper)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kate-foxs-analysis-of-english-culture-does-it-jibe-with-your-experience/542334/47 "2010-06-08T03:01:22Z")
> [@scifisam2009](#): > > Yes, it would be really horrible living like that. Fortunately, nobody does, even in horrible, rude, shy, rule-bound England. Well, good! I think that the American in my friend’s story must have unknowingly done something socially unacceptable to make himself a target for “taking the piss.” ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kate-foxs-analysis-of-english-culture-does-it-jibe-with-your-experience/542334/48 "2010-06-08T03:19:58Z")
> [@Pyper](#): > > Well, good! I think that the American in my friend’s story must have unknowingly done something socially unacceptable to make himself a target for “taking the piss.” We are not big on blowing our own trumpets. Someone that likes talking about his success is ripe for piss-taking. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kate-foxs-analysis-of-english-culture-does-it-jibe-with-your-experience/542334/49 "2010-06-08T03:25:11Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > I don’t know if this is a London thing, but I stayed for a number of nights in Gamlingay, about 40 or so miles north of London. The people there were perfectly sincere, friendly, polite folks. They bought me many free drinks, showed me the countryside, invited me for dinner, and generally treated me like a friend. I doubt very seriously that I’m so tone-deaf to sarcasm that I missed out on the huge, sophisticated joke on the gullible tourist when I was outside drinking with the locals and chatting up pretty girls at the barn dance. Oh, uh, so in response to the OP, i suppose I’d have to say that, no, it doesn’t jibe with my experience. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kate-foxs-analysis-of-english-culture-does-it-jibe-with-your-experience/542334/50 "2010-06-08T03:33:33Z")
> [@scifisam2009](#): > > No, you’d be thought an idiot, and you wouldn’t get the drink you were seeking. It’s a social rule. England. No, you wouldn’t be thought an idiot, the only way you’d end up not bring served is if no one noticed you were there because of the crowd. If they never noticed you, they wouldn’t be able to consider you an idiot. ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kate-foxs-analysis-of-english-culture-does-it-jibe-with-your-experience/542334/51 "2010-06-08T03:39:20Z")
> [@Pyper](#): > > Well, good! I think that the American in my friend’s story must have unknowingly done something socially unacceptable to make himself a target for “taking the piss.” Either that or your friend is exaggerating the story that his friend exaggerated. You’re hearing it, what, third-hand at this point? And we’re hearing it from you fourth-hand. I imagine the reality of the situation was nothing like that (although there’s always the possibilty that the friend in question was an asshole - it’s not like they don’t exist anywhere). ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kate-foxs-analysis-of-english-culture-does-it-jibe-with-your-experience/542334/52 "2010-06-08T03:52:36Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > No, you wouldn’t be thought an idiot, the only way you’d end up not bring served is if no one noticed you were there because of the crowd. If they never noticed you, they wouldn’t be able to consider you an idiot. So … your friends wouldn’t realise at all? :dubious: I give up, anyway - you don’t want to admit that American social rules are social rules, only that British ones are. It’s not exactly important, so there’s no point me trying again and again to persuade you otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Pyper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Pyper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pyper)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kate-foxs-analysis-of-english-culture-does-it-jibe-with-your-experience/542334/53 "2010-06-08T04:15:55Z")
> [@Candyman74](#): > > Either that or your friend is exaggerating the story that his friend exaggerated. You’re hearing it, what, third-hand at this point? And we’re hearing it from you fourth-hand. I imagine the reality of the situation was nothing like that (although there’s always the possibilty that the friend in question was an asshole - it’s not like they don’t exist anywhere). I was trying to think how to convey this: it may well have been exaggerated, but it still says something about English (or Londoner, I don’t know) culture. The way my English friend was telling the story made it clear that taking the piss out of this “earnest” American was a good and funny thing, and I was clearly meant to agree. There seems to be this meme in English culture that Americans are “earnest” and that earnest is bad. That’s why the OP clicked with me. It’s like there’s this horror of earnestness- everyone must save face and keep others at a distance- or at least that’s the ideal. I don’t think British people typically act like this in practice, but culturally it seems very desirable to be sarcastic and good at taking the piss. Witness the success of Ali G and other incarnations of Sash Baron Cohen. I’d never read about this phenomenon before, only experienced it with several Brits I’ve known. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kate-foxs-analysis-of-english-culture-does-it-jibe-with-your-experience/542334/54 "2010-06-08T05:44:18Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > We are not big on blowing our own trumpets. Someone that likes talking about his success is ripe for piss-taking. Of course, if the unknowing victim of this biting sarcasm is unaware of the joke, whose piss is really being taken, here? (And what is Britain doing with all this piss?) (Preliminary reports suggest the local beers.) (That is, of course, a joke. Please don’t flame me.) ---
**Author:** ![Charley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/97f17d/32.png) [@Charley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charley)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kate-foxs-analysis-of-english-culture-does-it-jibe-with-your-experience/542334/55 "2010-06-08T10:04:38Z")
I have read the book, and I found it very interesting and entertaining. Her rationale is that she has attempted to view her own culture as she would others, as a professional anthropologist. She freely admits that there are a number of issues with this, and a limit to how successful she could possibly be, given that she is embedded in the culture she’s trying to study. Although the whole enterprise started with the pub research, much of the rest of the book is actually more interesting. I particularly liked her accounts of how she forced herself to queue-jump in a variety of situations to see what sort of reaction she’d get. As other people have said, the idea that any society does not have its own rules which control and support social interaction is completely counter-intuitive. I’m not even sure Fox exaggerates that much, it’s just that she has attempted to document the stuff that the rest of us just get on and do. I found the most resonant bit of the whole book was the element that **ascenray** references - Fox’s interpretation of many of the complexities of English life… > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by **ascenray** > _The English, according to Fox, are desperately afraid of embarrassment and thus find it extremely difficult to engage with strangers, unless given certain excuses, in the form of intoxication related to certain social occasions (holidays, etc.). Not only do they cling to privacy, but they also have made anything approaching earnestness into a faux pas._ To answer the OP’s question - I found it absolutely familiar - sometimes cringingly so, but that’s my Englishness coming out again! ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kate-foxs-analysis-of-english-culture-does-it-jibe-with-your-experience/542334/56 "2010-06-08T10:42:04Z")
> [@scifisam2009](#): > > So … your friends wouldn’t realise at all? :dubious: Realize what? If you’re there with friends and one of them is standing there at the bar with you, then there would never have been a problem anyway. He’s not going to just stare at you waiting for you to order drinks. He’ll be looking to get the barkeeper’s attention from the start. If your friends are waiting somewhere else in the bar, they’re not going to know what’s going on. > [@](#): > > I give up, anyway - you don’t want to admit that American social rules are social rules, only that British ones are. That was never the actual issue here. The issue is that — as described by Fox — the _range_ of acceptable behavior in English society is much more constrained than in American society. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kate-foxs-analysis-of-english-culture-does-it-jibe-with-your-experience/542334/57 "2010-06-08T10:44:49Z")
**ascenray** , there are as many rules in your world as there are in mine. The reason they seem odd to you is because they’re not familiar. The reason yours seem invisible to you is because you’re used to them. The same is true for every culture across the globe. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kate-foxs-analysis-of-english-culture-does-it-jibe-with-your-experience/542334/58 "2010-06-08T10:57:59Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > Realize what? If you’re there with friends and one of them is standing there at the bar with you, then there would never have been a problem anyway. He’s not going to just stare at you waiting for you to order drinks. He’ll be looking to get the barkeeper’s attention from the start. If your friends are waiting somewhere else in the bar, they’re not going to know what’s going on. So, what you’re saying is that, if you make a faux pas in America, nobody’s going to think you’re silly for having done so? You will never appear rude by accidentally breaking a social rule? I know that is absolutely untrue. Americans are human too. > [@](#): > > That was never the actual issue here. The issue is that — as described by Fox — the _range_ of acceptable behavior in English society is much more constrained than in American society. But that’s imply not true. Fox wouldn’t say it is either, I bet - it’s just that describing the social rules so minutely makes them appear constrained even when they’re no more so than in any other culture. ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kate-foxs-analysis-of-english-culture-does-it-jibe-with-your-experience/542334/59 "2010-06-08T11:06:49Z")
> [@Pyper](#): > > I was trying to think how to convey this: it may well have been exaggerated, but it still says something about English (or Londoner, I don’t know) culture. The way my English friend was telling the story made it clear that taking the piss out of this “earnest” American was a good and funny thing, and I was clearly meant to agree. There seems to be this meme in English culture that Americans are “earnest” and that earnest is bad. > > That’s why the OP clicked with me. It’s like there’s this horror of earnestness- everyone must save face and keep others at a distance- or at least that’s the ideal. I don’t think British people typically act like this in practice, but culturally it seems very desirable to be sarcastic and good at taking the piss. Witness the success of Ali G and other incarnations of Sash Baron Cohen. I’d never read about this phenomenon before, only experienced it with several Brits I’ve known. I get what you’re saying; and yes, there are obviously differences. What I’m trying to say is that you’re judging 60-million people on a single anecdote that a friend of a friend related. I mean, I could use my “an American asked if we have TVs yet once” anecdote (and that one’s straight from me, not a friend who heard it from a friend), but I wouldn’t dream of trying to imply that Americans are that ignorant - that one person, of course, was. I think I’d take issue with the word “earnest” here, in the same way I took exception to the word “rules”, above. The way it’s phrased makes it sound like “an objectively good quality is deemed bad” and thus like a value judgement. I could phrase the exact same thing differently and suddenly it sounds very different - instead of “the English avoid earnestness” I could say “the English are not vain and boastful”. Same thing, but presented with a totally different spin. Yes, there are differences. But the nastiness and hostility which you seem to infer from it are not present to any level greater than anywhere else. You can spin particular things any way. Differences are good. They should be celebrated and appreciated. There’s far too much judgement of other cultures these days (fortunately, I guess it’s probably far less than in previous centuries). There are some cultures in this world with aspects which deserve universal condemnation; most things, though, are harmless, perfectly ordinary, and should be celebrated. Does that make sense? I’m not sure I’m a’sayin’ it right! ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kate-foxs-analysis-of-english-culture-does-it-jibe-with-your-experience/542334/60 "2010-06-08T11:24:34Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Of course, if the unknowing victim of this biting sarcasm is unaware of the joke, whose piss is really being taken, here? It is even funnier if the person isn’t aware. In fact, you could say that the whole point is that the other party isn’t aware of it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kate-foxs-analysis-of-english-culture-does-it-jibe-with-your-experience/542334.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kate-foxs-analysis-of-english-culture-does-it-jibe-with-your-experience/542334.md?page=4)