# Kate's Law (Do you support it) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 31, 2016, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kates-law-do-you-support-it/775977 "2016-12-31T18:38:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2017, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kates-law-do-you-support-it/775977/61 "2017-01-02T21:17:12Z")
I think Kate’s Law is simply an anti-illegal immigrant measure being pounced on as an opportunity, and that mandatory sentencing is a bad idea. That being said, wasn’t it Obama who once said something to the effect of, “Never let a crisis go to waste (as a chance to promote a political platform?)” After Sandy Hook, I believe. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2017, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kates-law-do-you-support-it/775977/62 "2017-01-02T21:41:43Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > I think Kate’s Law is simply an anti-illegal immigrant measure being pounced on as an opportunity, and that mandatory sentencing is a bad idea. > > That being said, wasn’t it Obama who once said something to the effect of, “Never let a crisis go to waste (as a chance to promote a political platform?)” After Sandy Hook, I believe. It was a Rahm Emanuel quote from 2008/2009. _You never want a serious crisis to go to waste. And what I mean by that is an opportunity to do things that you think you could not do before. -Rahm Emanuel First of all, what I said was, never allow a good crisis to go to waste when it’s an opportunity to do things that you had never considered, or that you didn’t think were possible. -Rahm Emanuel_ ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2017, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kates-law-do-you-support-it/775977/63 "2017-01-02T21:47:06Z")
Oregon has minimum sentencing for the most serious of crimes … rape, murder, arson … however the People won’t fund the added prison space … so once our prisons were full the local DA’s had to quit charging people with these crimes … Well done, folks, well done indeed … ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2017, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kates-law-do-you-support-it/775977/64 "2017-01-03T04:48:25Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > Oregon has minimum sentencing for the most serious of crimes … rape, murder, arson … however the People won’t fund the added prison space … so once our prisons were full the local DA’s had to quit charging people with these crimes … > > Well done, folks, well done indeed … That’s why federal crimes are the best kind of crimes. China is paying for our prisons with its bond purchases, and there’s no limit. If China steps out in a humph, we can sell bonds to Japan or our own FRB. Interest rates will rise, as will inflation, but so what? The best kind of people have financial advisers who know how to protect the best people’s copious assets from the scourges of inflation. Suffering among the lower breeds can be blamed on the Chinese, Mexicans, Muslims and liberals. And with no oversight, federal prisoners can be served dogfood on a steak-lobster budget. Win, win. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2017, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kates-law-do-you-support-it/775977/65 "2017-01-03T05:51:16Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > Can you provide a citation or two for this? I’m not seeing it. Look at stock prices. CCA’s stock prices plummeted in the late nineties and have never recovered. Cornell, CSC, and Wackenhut lost so much money they went out of business. GEO Group, which bought up most of these companies, is also in financial difficulties. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2017, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kates-law-do-you-support-it/775977/66 "2017-01-03T18:31:39Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Look at stock prices. CCA’s stock prices plummeted in the late nineties and have never recovered. Cornell, CSC, and Wackenhut lost so much money they went out of business. GEO Group, which bought up most of these companies, is also in financial difficulties. Those developments show only that private prisons weren’t as profitable as hoped _in a world in which regulation existed_. In a world in which regulations are disposable, profit becomes not just possible, but assured. Privatization is the gift that keeps on giving for the top 1%–the working classes pay higher taxes, which go into the pockets of the privatizers. They are then free to spend as little as they wish on the prisons, schools, Veterans, etc. Who’s going to stop them? Trump won’t–he’ll be getting his own cut. Congress won’t–they will be either directly or indirectly paid by the privatizers (who may be their own family members in some cases). The Supreme Court? Don’t make me laugh. Who’s going to stop them? ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kates-law-do-you-support-it/775977/67 "2017-12-01T00:56:21Z")
Updating this thread: **Kate Steinle trial: Jose Ines Garcia Zarate found not guilty of murder in fatal pier shooting** > **[Kate Steinle trial: Jose Ines Garcia Zarate found not guilty of murder in...](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/kate-steinle-trial-jose-ines-garcia-zarate-not-guilty-fatal-pier-shooting/)** > > Kate Steinle's July 2015 death set off a national debate over immigration policy and so-called "sanctuary cities" They apparently believed his defense: > [@](#): > > Garcia Zarate said he found the stolen gun wrapped in a shirt under a chair on a pedestrian pier and that the weapon accidentally fired when he picked it up. The bullet ricocheted on the pier’s concrete walkway before it struck Steinle. > > His attorneys say the ricochet showed the shooting was an accident. Much of the testimony during the trial has focused on ballistics experts. > > Defense attorney Matt Gonzalez said in his closing remarks that he knows it’s difficult to believe Garcia Zarate found an object that turned out to be a weapon that fired when he picked it up. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kates-law-do-you-support-it/775977/68 "2017-12-01T02:12:26Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > Updating this thread: > **Kate Steinle trial: Jose Ines Garcia Zarate found not guilty of murder in fatal pier shooting** It’s a tough one, but without an actual eyewitness to the moment of the shot I can easily see agreeing with the jury here. Reasonable doubt is pretty easy to raise when there is a ricochet and no motive. ---
**Author:** ![gatorslap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gatorslap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gatorslap)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kates-law-do-you-support-it/775977/69 "2017-12-01T08:00:08Z")
It’d be extremely difficult to intentionally murder someone with a ricochet. If the ricochet wasn’t in doubt, they shouldn’t have charged him with murder in the first place. They should have charged him with involuntary manslaughter. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kates-law-do-you-support-it/775977/70 "2017-12-01T14:15:38Z")
> [@gatorslap](#): > > It’d be extremely difficult to intentionally murder someone with a ricochet. If the ricochet wasn’t in doubt, they shouldn’t have charged him with murder in the first place. They should have charged him with involuntary manslaughter. Then it would have been said that was further proof they are “soft” on “illegals”. Outraged reaction makes for bad legal decision making. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kates-law-do-you-support-it/775977/71 "2017-12-01T15:20:38Z")
> [@gatorslap](#): > > It’d be extremely difficult to intentionally murder someone with a ricochet. If the ricochet wasn’t in doubt, they shouldn’t have charged him with murder in the first place. They should have charged him with involuntary manslaughter. Am I missing something? The reports I’m looking at – here’s [one](https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2017/11/30/us/kate-steinle-murder-trial-verdict/index.html) from CNN, but I can give you a second and a third and a fourth – say that he _was_ charged with, and just now acquitted of, involuntary manslaughter. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kates-law-do-you-support-it/775977/72 "2017-12-01T19:10:46Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > say that he _was_ charged with, and just now acquitted of, involuntary manslaughter. The jury was given the choice of 1rst or second degree murder or involuntary manslaughter. The prosecution for most of the trial was pushing for second degree murder, but apparently in their summation went a step further and made an argument for 1rst degree murder. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kates-law-do-you-support-it/775977/73 "2017-12-01T19:39:48Z")
He was, however, convicted of being a felon in possession of a gun. ---
**Author:** ![duality72](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duality72/32/3910_2.png) [@duality72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duality72)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kates-law-do-you-support-it/775977/74 "2017-12-01T20:32:04Z")
Judging from [this link](http://www.ktvu.com/news/prosecution-witness-testifies-on-bullet-ricochet-in-steinle-murder-trial), which seems to be a great article on the specifics of the ballistics investigations related to this event, seems to indicate that the ricochet was pretty well established. The ricochet point was far closer to Zarate than Steinle, only about 15 feet away from him. The prosecution tried to argue it was a “skip shot” resulting from Zarate’s inexperience and/or anxiety, but that seems like a real stretch to me that someone intentionally aiming a gun would end up shooting the ground a short distance in front of them. That would seem to eliminate the murder charges. Even for the involuntary manslaughter charge, does it make sense that Zarate would pull a trigger to shoot the ground a short distance away? An accidental discharge may actually be the most believable of these scenarios and I could certainly understand not believing any of the charges were met beyond a reasonable doubt. ---
**Author:** ![gatorslap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gatorslap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gatorslap)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kates-law-do-you-support-it/775977/75 "2017-12-01T20:46:44Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Am I missing something? The reports I’m looking at – here’s [one](https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2017/11/30/us/kate-steinle-murder-trial-verdict/index.html) from CNN, but I can give you a second and a third and a fourth – say that he _was_ charged with, and just now acquitted of, involuntary manslaughter. More accurately he was charged with murder with the jury having the option of involuntary manslaughter as a lesser conviction. He was convicted of neither, so yes, he was acquitted of involuntary manslaughter. But what I meant was that IMO he should have been charged directly with involuntary manslaughter, without the murder charge. With the prosecution arguing for involuntary manslaughter at trial, and the ricochet being an element of the case rather than an element of the defense, they’d have a better chance of conviction. And beyond the courtoom, in terms of “the actual truth”, it seems highly unlikely to have been murder, factually speaking. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kates-law-do-you-support-it/775977/76 "2017-12-01T21:46:22Z")
I support Kate’s Law and I support tougher measures to restrict illegal immigrations. That said, I’m not sure that the San Francisco jury was wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Patx2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/73ab20/32.png) [@Patx2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patx2)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2017, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kates-law-do-you-support-it/775977/77 "2017-12-01T21:50:49Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > I support Kate’s Law and I support tougher measures to restrict illegal immigrations. > > That said, I’m not sure that the San Francisco jury was wrong. Agreed. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kates-law-do-you-support-it/775977.md?page=3)