# Kathleen Parker warns: gay marriage means the end of SoCas **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 1, 2004, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kathleen-parker-warns-gay-marriage-means-the-end-of-socas/253007 "2004-07-01T04:24:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2004, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kathleen-parker-warns-gay-marriage-means-the-end-of-socas/253007/1 "2004-07-01T04:24:26Z")
> **[Kathleen Parker: Biography and Latest Articles - Kathleen Parker](https://townhall.com/columnists/kathleenparker/)** > > Kathleen Parker’s clear, descriptive, lively writing underscores her common-sense approach to life's challenges. Twice weekly, Kathleen Parker assesses the country’s mental health with a Rorschach uniquely her own – a reporter’s gimlet eye combined... It’s an argument so incoherent I can barely make sense of it, but her main point seems to be that if the state recognizes gay marriages, this will magically make it legal to sue churches for not recognizing them. Never mind that this never happened with interracial marriage: which is infinately more accepted than gay marriage will be within our lifetimes. Never mind that none of the things she warns will come to pass are supported under any law I’ve ever heard of. And who are the “legal scholars” who are troubled by this possibility? There are clearly ones who worry that gay marriage will open up some strange new questions for legal ethics and civil law. But I’ve never heard of a single one that claimed churches could be sued for preaching that homosexuality is wrong. Heck, churches can’t be sued or lose their tax-exempt status today for preaching that all non-whites will burn in hell for goodness sakes. What is this woman smoking? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2004, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kathleen-parker-warns-gay-marriage-means-the-end-of-socas/253007/2 "2004-07-01T04:51:38Z")
“Place your hand on the Bible and state your full name” “Jesus Horatio Christ…and you’re shitting me, right?” ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2004, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kathleen-parker-warns-gay-marriage-means-the-end-of-socas/253007/3 "2004-07-01T06:12:52Z")
> [@Kathleen Parker](#): > > A secular world that ratifies homosexual marriage would provide a legal foundation that would open the floodgates to civil litigation against religious leaders, institutions and worshipers. > > In such an environment, churches might be sued for declining to provide their sanctuaries for gay marriages, for example. Ministers could be sued for hate speech for giving a sermon on moral behavior. Churches that protest homosexual unions could face revocation of their tax exemption status. Uh, okay. If you’ll excuse me, I’m off to sue the local pastor for not giving his blessing to my girlfriend’s abortion. Then maybe I’ll sue a few synagogues for damages, since their teachings are hurtful to my uncle’s pork pie factory profits, which I stand to inherit. Because religious institutions must necessarily be forced to sanction everything that is allowable under secular law. Right. Besides that, am I reading this right? > [@](#): > > A nationwide Gallup Poll last month found that 55 percent oppose same-sex marriage (down from 65 percent in December) and 42 percent favor gay marriage (up from 31 percent in December). > > Maybe within the context of the Iraq war and disturbing news of beheadings - remember when the subject of “beheadings” never came up in conversation? - gay marriage is way down the list of urgent concerns. Did she _really_ speculate that increased support for the legal recognition of homosexual relationships might be _because of the terrorists?_ Ow! Ow! The Stupid! It’s killing me! ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2004, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kathleen-parker-warns-gay-marriage-means-the-end-of-socas/253007/4 "2004-07-01T08:16:10Z")
Yet another stupid - she says if gay marriages become legal we can all sue churches who say homosexuality is a sin for hate crimes. Since hate crimes against gays are already illegal in many places, I wonder why the suits aren’t flying. I also wonder why no one has thought to sue the Catholic church for not marrying divorced people? Notice that the Hayes book, the one Jon Stewart trashed, is being advertised on this site? ---
**Author:** ![Shade](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2bfe46/32.png) [@Shade](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shade)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2004, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kathleen-parker-warns-gay-marriage-means-the-end-of-socas/253007/5 "2004-07-01T08:29:22Z")
Is there any way anti-discrimination laws could be applied? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2004, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kathleen-parker-warns-gay-marriage-means-the-end-of-socas/253007/6 "2004-07-01T10:42:16Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > “Place your hand on the Bible and state your full name” > > “Jesus Horatio Christ…and you’re shitting me, right?” That reminds me of my favorite scene from _Joshua_. The Pope peers at him after his recounting of an event from the Holy See’s childhood and says raspily, “Who _are_ you.” Joshua holds his stare and with twinkling eyes says, “Peter, don’t you know me?” Oh, lordy, that’s just so beautiful. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2004, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kathleen-parker-warns-gay-marriage-means-the-end-of-socas/253007/7 "2004-07-01T12:49:27Z")
> [@Larry Mudd](#): > > Besides that, am I reading this right?Did she _really_ speculate that increased support for the legal recognition of homosexual relationships might be _because of the terrorists?_ No doubt those fundamentalist Muslim terrorists are big fans of gay marriage. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2004, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kathleen-parker-warns-gay-marriage-means-the-end-of-socas/253007/8 "2004-07-01T13:06:36Z")
> [@Shade](#): > > Is there any way anti-discrimination laws could be applied? At first I wanted to say no. But then I remembered that both the Catholic Church and Bob Jones University have been sued for discrimination against women. The Catholic Church won its case, but Bob Jones lost its case and its tax exempt status was revoked. So yes, someone could sue a church for discrimination against homosexuals. Of course, they can do that now, so I don’t see how legalizing gay marriage would fundamentally change anything. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2004, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kathleen-parker-warns-gay-marriage-means-the-end-of-socas/253007/9 "2004-07-01T13:58:18Z")
> [@Larry Mudd](#): > > Besides that, am I reading this right?Did she _really_ speculate that increased support for the legal recognition of homosexual relationships might be _because of the terrorists?_ I think she’s saying that, with the war in Iraq and the beheadings and all, gay marriage is less of a priority for people. ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2004, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kathleen-parker-warns-gay-marriage-means-the-end-of-socas/253007/10 "2004-07-01T14:11:10Z")
Maybe it’s just me, but if gay marriage passes and some couple sues their church for not letting them get married, well, I’d say “Good For You!”. I guess I’m ok when someone’s suing a bigoted institution for their, well…, bigotry. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2004, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kathleen-parker-warns-gay-marriage-means-the-end-of-socas/253007/11 "2004-07-01T14:18:18Z")
Most Jewish rabbis will not wed a Jew to a non-Jew. The few who will will only do so if you swear to them that any children will be raised as Jews. The woman who wrote that article is entirely full of shit. Haj ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2004, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kathleen-parker-warns-gay-marriage-means-the-end-of-socas/253007/12 "2004-07-01T15:36:19Z")
Yeah. Stephen Harper trotted out that tired old saw during the campaign and pretended to score a hit by demanding whether the NDP would the Notwithstanding Clause if churches had their rights not to marry same-sex couples taken away. Well, 1) that would be against the charter anyway, 2) no existing law forces any church to marry anybody who can legally marry, 3) the text of the draft bill submitted by the NDP specifically exempts churches from having to do it if they don’t want, and 4) I didn’t want to get married in your stinky ol’ church anyway, so nyahhhh. ---
**Author:** ![spectrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@spectrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spectrum)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2004, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kathleen-parker-warns-gay-marriage-means-the-end-of-socas/253007/13 "2004-07-01T15:54:28Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > Maybe it’s just me, but if gay marriage passes and some couple sues their church for not letting them get married, well, I’d say “Good For You!”. I guess I’m ok when someone’s suing a bigoted institution for their, well…, bigotry. Why should my right to be married in the eyes of the government trump the right of a group of religious people to their freedom of religion? I wouldn’t want the government dictating practices or doctrines to the church I attend, and I don’t want the government to do that to other churches, even if the result of such dictation is, ostensibly, beneficial to me. People have a right to believe stupid things, even evil things. They have a right to form churches that preach those stupid, evil things. So long as they don’t try to enact that stupidity or evilness into law, they’re not treading on me, and I see nothing good that can come from treading upon them. I am not harmed if the Catholic Church doesn’t recognize my marriage. The Catholic Church doesn’t administer Social Security, it does not decide custody issues regarding children, it doesn’t determine my tax rate, it doesn’t determine whether I can see my loved one in the hospital. However, millions of devout Catholics in this country _are_ harmed if their religion is changed to suit my worldview, and that’s not right. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2004, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kathleen-parker-warns-gay-marriage-means-the-end-of-socas/253007/14 "2004-07-01T16:25:15Z")
This is really embarrassing, but what’s “SoCas”? ---
**Author:** ![spectrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@spectrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spectrum)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2004, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kathleen-parker-warns-gay-marriage-means-the-end-of-socas/253007/15 "2004-07-01T16:26:20Z")
Separation of Church and State. Or Society of Cucumbers and Sugar. I can’t decide. ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2004, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kathleen-parker-warns-gay-marriage-means-the-end-of-socas/253007/16 "2004-07-01T16:26:20Z")
Yes, why should a Church’s doctrine be limited by the laws of government, **Spectrum**? Let the churches do whatever their beliefs dictate! Whee! Let them smite the wicked! Stone the adulters! Disallow medical treatment to their ill! Yippee! Hurray for ignorance! In all seriousness, I’m still of the opinion that if a couple wants to sue their religious institution to get married there (gay, straight, divorced, widowed, multi-racial, et al) go ahead. I wouldn’t guarantee a win on their part either though. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2004, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kathleen-parker-warns-gay-marriage-means-the-end-of-socas/253007/17 "2004-07-01T16:29:00Z")
Ah. I was looking for two words. “Southern Californians…” “Social Calibrations…” “Soda Cans…” ---
**Author:** ![spectrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@spectrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spectrum)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2004, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kathleen-parker-warns-gay-marriage-means-the-end-of-socas/253007/18 "2004-07-01T16:33:02Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > Yes, why should a Church’s doctrine be limited by the laws of government, **Spectrum**? Let the churches do whatever their beliefs dictate! Whee! Let them smite the wicked! Stone the adulters! Disallow medical treatment to their ill! Yippee! Hurray for ignorance! Okay, dimbulb, see if you can’t figure out the difference between a religion not recognizing, for its own purposes, a marriage that is not in line with its doctrinal beliefs, and stoning a person to death. Here’s a hint, one causes harm to another person, the other doesn’t… See if you can’t figure which is which. My ability to be married in the eyes of government and God is in no way infringed by the Catholic Church’s refusal to recognize that marriage. However, a Catholic’s right to freedom of religion is infringed if I force his church to recognize a marriage that goes against its teachings. If you can’t see that, you have no concept of liberty. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2004, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kathleen-parker-warns-gay-marriage-means-the-end-of-socas/253007/19 "2004-07-01T16:50:41Z")
It would be easy to dismiss Kathleen Parker. The state shouldn’t interfere with the decisions of a church. But the state of California is making the Catholic Church (actually Catholic Charities) pay for contraceptives in its health plan, in direct conflict with Catholic teachings and in rather direct conflict, apparantly, with the separation of church and state. How this can be squared with the Constitution I don’t know. But there you go. Maybe there’s hyperbole here, but there’s legitimate concern as well. I support civil unions, with full equivalency of rights even at the federal level. But they must be civil. Churches must be left alone in this area. ---
**Author:** ![spectrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@spectrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spectrum)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2004, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kathleen-parker-warns-gay-marriage-means-the-end-of-socas/253007/20 "2004-07-01T17:06:44Z")
Catholic Charities is not part of the Catholic Church. It is not a religious organization, and does not only employ Catholics. It operates separately from the structure of the Catholic Church, and is therefore no more protected by the SOCAS than a bookstore that specializes in religious works. If Catholic Charities were owned and operated by the Catholic Church, then it would be immune from this law. Just as the Church itself is – the Catholic Diocese of Los Angeles, for instance, is not required to cover birth control costs for its staff members. Catholic Charities, however, is trying to have it both ways: be “private” when it suits them, and claim “religious organization” when it suits them. They can’t be both. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kathleen-parker-warns-gay-marriage-means-the-end-of-socas/253007.md?page=2)