# Katie and Bill \[Prince William and Kate surnames\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 10, 2014, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katie-and-bill-prince-william-and-kate-surnames/683376 "2014-03-10T20:02:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2014, 10:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katie-and-bill-prince-william-and-kate-surnames/683376/21 "2014-03-11T10:26:19Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > See how much good that did for Anne Boleyn. But she wasn’t a Freeman. Or if she was, Henry VIII was even hornier that we’ve been told. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2014, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katie-and-bill-prince-william-and-kate-surnames/683376/22 "2014-03-11T10:53:21Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > See how much good that did for Anne Boleyn. She was done up ‘by lawful judgment of [her] Peers, [and] by the Law of the Land’. The charges against her may have been trumped up, but they were certainly more than ‘less popular than her husband’s first wife’. ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2014, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katie-and-bill-prince-william-and-kate-surnames/683376/23 "2014-03-11T12:27:25Z")
> [@Slithy\_Tove](#): > > What’s on all their army ID in place of a last name? > > When Louis XVI was overthrown, he wasn’t called Louis Bourbon, but, going back to the royal house’s founder, Louis Capet. Then they de-capetated him. Wiki says it’s unclear, but it’s possible that the Capets’ name share etymological roots with “decapitation” (in this context, it could mean “head” or “chief”, as in “Captain” or “Capital”) ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2014, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katie-and-bill-prince-william-and-kate-surnames/683376/24 "2014-03-11T12:29:29Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > “The Cambridges” is just journalistic shorthand for people who don’t have a true surname. “The Windsors” would be both incorrect and indeterminate, as lots of people in the royal family could be the intended subject. Pretty standard for tabloids. They like shorthand nicknames. I don’t think anyone really thought that Wacko Jacko was his real name. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2014, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katie-and-bill-prince-william-and-kate-surnames/683376/25 "2014-03-11T12:44:46Z")
> [@Inna\_Minnit](#): > > I was reading some dreck about Prince William and Kate. It called them the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge. Later it referred to them as the Cambridges. > > That can’t be correct, can it? Their last name, if one were to use it, is Windsor, isn’t it? > > What is the correct address for them? This is not just a royal thing, it’s a peerage thing. Peerage titles are often used where, for us mere mortals, surnames would be used. For example, the current Earl of Pembroke is a bloke called William Herbert - “Herbert” is his surname. But if you moved in his social circle, and you wished to distinguish him in conversation from all the other Williams, you would call him “William Pembroke” (or simply “Pembroke”). He and his wife are the Earl and Countess of Pembroke or, less formally, “the Pembrokes”. Their son Reginald, however, is Reginald Herbert, not Reginald Pembroke. But when he succeed his father he, too, will become Pembroke. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2014, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katie-and-bill-prince-william-and-kate-surnames/683376/26 "2014-03-11T13:17:55Z")
> [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > Both William and Harry use Wales as a surname when they need one. William was enrolled in college as William Wales, and was William Wales in the Royal Air Force (where his nickname was “Billy the Fish”). Prince Harry is known as Captain Harry Wales in the military. While he is Harry to friends, co-workers and family, I am quite sure the British Army (and pretty much anyone else in any official capacity) uses his actual first name, which is Henry. ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2014, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katie-and-bill-prince-william-and-kate-surnames/683376/27 "2014-03-11T13:36:39Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > While he is Harry to friends, co-workers and family, I am quite sure the British Army (and pretty much anyone else in any official capacity) uses his actual first name, which is Henry. Not according to [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Harry) (first paragraph): > [@](#): > > **Prince Harry** [1] (Henry Charles Albert David;[fn 1] formally styled **Prince Henry of Wales** ; born 15 September 1984), also known as **Captain Harry Wales** in his military role, is the younger son of Charles, Prince of Wales, and his first wife, Diana, Princess of Wales. (bolding theirs, replicated here) Also, [a citation they give from the Telegraph](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/prince-harry/8455766/Prince-Harry-promoted-to-captain-in-Army.html): > [@](#): > > The Prince, who will now be known as Captain Harry Wales, was promoted from Lieutenant last week as he was awarded his Apache Badge after qualifying as an Apache helicopter pilot last month. ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2014, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katie-and-bill-prince-william-and-kate-surnames/683376/28 "2014-03-11T14:53:08Z")
> [@Ranger\_Jeff](#): > > Oh, does Queen Elizabeth and/or King Charles or William (presuming they goes with those names) have the power to to put Camilla in the tower of London or some other secure place? > [@ctnguy](#): > > Nope. > > That is, in fact, one of the few clauses of Magna Carta that is [still in force](http://www.legislation.gov.uk/aep/Edw1cc1929/25/9). Ah, so they’ll just have to arrange a place for her in a hospital for treatment for alcoholism and mental illness. In “The Ruling Class”, Peter O’Toole’s character was tucked away in a “Home for Eccentric Gentlemen”. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2014, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katie-and-bill-prince-william-and-kate-surnames/683376/29 "2014-03-11T15:52:32Z")
> [@KneadToKnow](#): > > Were they not Prince and Princess, but only Duke and Duchess, they would be [Mountebatten-Windsors](http://www.royal.gov.uk/ThecurrentRoyalFamily/TheRoyalFamilyname/Overview.aspx). > > > [@](#): > > > > However, in 1960, The Queen and The Duke of Edinburgh decided that they would like their own direct descendants to be distinguished from the rest of the Royal Family (without changing the name of the Royal House), as Windsor is the surname used by all the male and unmarried female descendants of George V. > > > > It was therefore declared in the Privy Council that The Queen’s descendants, other than those with the style of Royal Highness and the title of Prince/Princess, or female descendants who marry, would carry the name of Mountbatten-Windsor. > > (emphasis mine) Do members of the royal family have the right to legally change their name? Certainly, a royal changing their name would probably be highly political and unlikely, but would a descendant now carrying the name Windsor or Mountbatten-Windsor _legally_ need special permission from the Queen, above and beyond the requirements for a regular British citizen to change their name? ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2014, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katie-and-bill-prince-william-and-kate-surnames/683376/30 "2014-03-11T16:41:53Z")
> [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > Both William and Harry use Wales as a surname when they need one. William was enrolled in college as William Wales, and was William Wales in the Royal Air Force (where his nickname was “Billy the Fish”). Prince Harry is known as Captain Harry Wales in the military. Sure, but that was back in the days when they were just Princes and heirs to the Prince of Wales. Harry’s still styled Prince Henry of Wales, FYI. Now that William’s been created Duke of Cambridge, he’s now “Cambridge” isn’t he? As in, Prince George would use the surname “Cambridge” on his military uniform if say… Elizabeth II lives another 25 years? But… assuming she doesn’t live to 112, Charles will be King, and William will be Prince of Wales and(?) Duke of Cambridge, and George would use “Wales” on his uniform like everyone else. ---
**Author:** ![Saltire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saltire/32/553_2.png) [@Saltire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saltire)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2014, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katie-and-bill-prince-william-and-kate-surnames/683376/31 "2014-03-11T17:39:58Z")
A column dealing with something like this, and lots of side issues: [What did Prince Andrew’s superiors in the Royal Navy call him?](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/884/what-did-prince-andrew-39-s-superiors-in-the-royal-navy-call-him) My favorite fact from this is that his buddies just called him ‘H’, short for ‘His Royal Highness.’ ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2014, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katie-and-bill-prince-william-and-kate-surnames/683376/32 "2014-03-11T19:37:13Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Sure, but that was back in the days when they were just Princes and heirs to the Prince of Wales. Harry’s still styled Prince Henry of Wales, FYI. > > Now that William’s been created Duke of Cambridge, he’s now “Cambridge” isn’t he? If he’s been using Wales all along, is there any real reason that he should change it, especially since neither is actually his surname? It seems like both William and Harry do the best they can to function as normally as they can in their military positions, and changing the name they’re using there in response to a title change that only affects their “royal” life just doesn’t fit. > [@alphaboi867](#): > > His uncle, Prince Andrew, on the other hand went from being Lt. Windsor to Lt. York on his marriage (& being made Duke of York). Yup. And the new generation doesn’t necessarily do those traditionally “proper” things that their parents did. They do crazy stuff like marry commoners and take care of their own children and I guess they don’t demand new name tags on their fatigues because they got a royal promotion. ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2014, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katie-and-bill-prince-william-and-kate-surnames/683376/33 "2014-03-11T20:53:25Z")
> [@Green\_Bean](#): > > If he’s been using Wales all along, is there any real reason that he should change it, especially since neither is actually his surname? It seems like both William and Harry do the best they can to function as normally as they can in their military positions, and changing the name they’re using there in response to a title change that only affects their “royal” life just doesn’t fit. Really, all it would do is force the Prince to get new nametapes put on all of his uniforms, and it just doesn’t seem fair to force such a needless expense on one of Britain’s young men in uniform, especially in such austere times.😃 But I wonder, maybe he should just get some sort of logo, like the Artist Formerly Known As Prince did, that he could have embroidered on all of his uniforms for easy recognition? ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2014, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katie-and-bill-prince-william-and-kate-surnames/683376/34 "2014-03-11T21:23:11Z")
> [@Raguleader](#): > > But I wonder, maybe he should just get some sort of logo, He already has one – see [here](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ed/Royal_Standard_of_Prince_William.svg/150px-Royal_Standard_of_Prince_William.svg.png). He even has a [special one for Canada](http://a57.foxnews.com/global.fncstatic.com/static/managed/img/World/660/371/william_canada_flag.jpg?ve=1&tl=1), newly set up. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2014, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katie-and-bill-prince-william-and-kate-surnames/683376/35 "2014-03-11T21:32:24Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > Elizabeth R = Elizabeth Regina (i.e., Queen Elizabeth). > > For male monarchs, R stands for Rex (king). > > The Prince of Wales usually signs as Charles P (Charles Princeps = Prince Charles). > > **Victoria signed as Victoria RI (Victoria Regina Imperatrix = Queen-Empress).** > > “The Cambridges” is just journalistic shorthand for people who don’t have a true surname. “The Windsors” would be both incorrect and indeterminate, as lots of people in the royal family could be the intended subject. Emphasis added. Wait, changing/adding her title (or whatever the correct word is) to “Empress”–isn’t that sort of a huge deal? Hell, if Napoleon hadn’t done it he would’ve had a Beethoven symphony named after him. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2014, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katie-and-bill-prince-william-and-kate-surnames/683376/36 "2014-03-11T21:38:25Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > Wait, changing/adding her title (or whatever the correct word is) to “Empress”–isn’t that sort of a huge deal? The Empress got added when the Crown took control of India in 1877. The last monarch to sign RI was QEII’s dad George VI. ---
**Author:** ![ctnguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@ctnguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ctnguy)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2014, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katie-and-bill-prince-william-and-kate-surnames/683376/37 "2014-03-11T21:38:59Z")
Victoria adopted the title of “Empress of India” (and “Queen-Empress”) when the rule of India was taken over from the East India Company. It was properly approved by Parliament (Royal Titles Act 1876). ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2014, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katie-and-bill-prince-william-and-kate-surnames/683376/38 "2014-03-11T21:46:30Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > Emphasis added. > > Wait, changing/adding her title (or whatever the correct word is) to “Empress”–isn’t that sort of a huge deal? > Hell, if Napoleon hadn’t done it he would’ve had a Beethoven symphony named after him. When she reigned in the late 1800s, Queen Victoria probably had a better claim to the title than any other person on Earth did. “The sun never sets on the British Empire” was not hyperbole until well into the 20th century. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2014, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katie-and-bill-prince-william-and-kate-surnames/683376/39 "2014-03-11T21:49:33Z")
> [@Raguleader](#): > > “The sun never sets on the British Empire” was not hyperbole until well into the 20th century. It still doesn’t set! 😉 [XKCD](http://what-if.xkcd.com/48/) has the detail. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2014, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katie-and-bill-prince-william-and-kate-surnames/683376/40 "2014-03-11T22:00:04Z")
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