# Katie, bar the border! Married Canadians a-comin'! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 18, 2003, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katie-bar-the-border-married-canadians-a-comin/202461 "2003-09-18T20:17:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2003, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katie-bar-the-border-married-canadians-a-comin/202461/81 "2003-09-20T06:59:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Astroboy14 \* > I’ve been there. It pissed me off. But you gotta follow the rules like everyone else or go home. That’s life. Unless you’re gay, of course, in which case you don’t get to follow the rules like everyone else. Which is the point of the thread. Good eye on that one. ---
**Author:** ![Potter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Potter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Potter)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2003, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katie-bar-the-border-married-canadians-a-comin/202461/82 "2003-09-20T07:25:01Z")
Uh, perhaps I’m missing the point entirely (it’s been known to happen) but to everyone that’s saying that they should’ve just filled out the forms correctly? They tried to. They are not two single guys, whether or not the US decides to recognise that or not. They are married, whether or not the US decides to recognise that or not. If they are not allowed to fill out the forms stating that they are legally married and therefore a family, there were no correct forms for them to fill out. There were no relevant rules for them to follow as they are not single. The forms and rules that apply to non-marrieds entering the US _did not apply_ because, regardless of whether the US recognises their marriage or not, they are married. Unless it’s become legal all of a sudden to falsify documentation in order to gain entry to the States, I really don’t see what eveyone expected them to do. I am legally entitled to drive in this country, but currently don’t have an international driving licence. Where I wouldn’t expect a country to recognise my crappy lil Brit driver’s licence, I certainly wouldn’t expect to have to fill out forms stating that I am a non-driver in order to enter, because that would be expecting me to lie about my status. There were no rules that applied to them, there were no correct forms, which I find terribly sad. _That_ is the point of this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Not\_In\_Anger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/3ab097/32.png) [@Not\_In\_Anger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Not_In_Anger)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2003, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katie-bar-the-border-married-canadians-a-comin/202461/83 "2003-09-20T07:45:50Z")
No, it isn’t. Why should the US jump up and do tricks to produce new forms to satisfy these two people? They have nothing better to do at the border? I sure hope they do. These guys went to the border as a political gesture, knowing full well what they would find. So they found it. And have made a fuss. If they actually wanted into the US, they would have filled out the forms as instructed. These guys are Canadians, not Americans. We fill out forms as instructed. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2003, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katie-bar-the-border-married-canadians-a-comin/202461/84 "2003-09-20T11:52:55Z")
Potter: You’re missing the point. Those two men did not try to fill the forms out properly. The US government considers them to be single. ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2003, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katie-bar-the-border-married-canadians-a-comin/202461/85 "2003-09-20T12:28:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Airman Doors, USAF \* > If they had been allowed to enter as a family, that would have legitimized the situation immediately as two men married to each other, with the approval of an agent of the US government, and as a result the government as a whole. If that were the case then they would have had all the rights of married people, in violation of our laws. Interesting though that my two (female) friends married in San Francisco, albeit at the French Consulate. Another variation on a theme, I guess. Still, a marriage ceremony recognised under French jurisdiction - and allowing the US partner to reside in France – but not allowing the French partner to reside in the US. Consequence, a lot of misery. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2003, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katie-bar-the-border-married-canadians-a-comin/202461/86 "2003-09-20T12:42:00Z")
Let’s get something clear because I am sick and fucking tired of the misrepresentation going on here. You see, I just filled out one of those customs forms a few hours ago. Married couples can, if they choose to, fill out only one form between them. It is not a requirement. If the married couple have different surnames, they also have to fill out two forms. They also have to be married according to US law. This means no same sex couples and no plural marriages. Thems our rules, if you don’t like it, stay home. There are over 200 other countries that would have done the exact same thing. Why no ire at them? There are dozens of countries where homosexuality will get you jailed and possibly tortured. This is not some lame law in Georgia that is never enforced but one that is enforced often and with tragic consequences. (Ref: Anwar in Malaysia). Your rightous indignation would be better there for sure. Furthermore, Canada would have done the same thing just a few short months ago. Haj ---
**Author:** ![Potter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Potter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Potter)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2003, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katie-bar-the-border-married-canadians-a-comin/202461/87 "2003-09-20T12:53:19Z")
Whether or not the US government considers them to be single, they are not. As Matt pointed out in his thread on this subject, **dr\_mom\_mcl** is not licenced to practice medicine in any other country than Canada. When she enters another country, she is not licenced to practice: However, I highly doubt she is expected to fill out a form that states she is not a doctor. Just because that country does not recognise her legal licence to practice medicine, it does not mean she suddenly becomes a non-doctor on entering the country, because a doctor is what she is. These two guys are married, regardless of whether the US considers them to be so or not. Therefore, they should not be required to fill out forms that would catagorise them as single guys, because they are not single guys, they are married, regardless of whether or not the US decides to recognise that or not. You are missing the point; there were no correct forms to fill in. Should the US government create a document to cover this situation? If it considers itself to be any kind of civilised country, yes, it should. The US wouldn’t necessarily have to recognise the legality of the marriage or vindicate it, it would just have to produce a form that doesn’t expect people to lie or misrepresent their status. I don’t think that’s unreasonable. Furthermore, producing the correct documentation could, again in a halfway-civilised country, entitle the spouse of someone injured while in the US to some sort of the same kind of access to medical information and decision-making rights as any other married couple. Entering the country as two singles would deny them that quality of access. Sort it the fuck out: you don’t have to approve of queers marrying, but it’s hardly the most unreasonable request to accept that we do and expect at least a begrudging acknowledgement of that. I have full US citizenship; this thread, along with numerous other factors, is just making me more and more pleased that I should be able to dump it in favour of Canadian citizenship in the next few years. You think you’re sick and tired? Christ. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2003, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katie-bar-the-border-married-canadians-a-comin/202461/88 "2003-09-20T12:54:22Z")
Some provincial Canadian government says the guys are married. The US government says they are not. I would say that in US jurisdiction the US government rules. Suppose a foreign government says to a guy: “You do not qualify for citizenship in our country because under our laws you are a citizen of the USA”. Now suppose the USA does not consider him a US citizen and the guy arrives at the border. Should he or should he not be considered a US citizen by the US Immigration authorities? I don’t think so. As I said, the INS can’t even do what they are supposed to already be doing. The mess is huge and people by the thousands have their lives disrupted or ruined by the inefficiency of this agency. I have a very hard time getting worked up over this incident. There are already thousands and thousands of people who are legally entitled to visas and are not getting them for months or years or at all. Let’s fix that first. ---
**Author:** ![Potter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Potter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Potter)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2003, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katie-bar-the-border-married-canadians-a-comin/202461/89 "2003-09-20T13:16:30Z")
The INS can’t, no. I don’t think this is some huge anti-queer marriage thing, I’m sorry if I’ve given that impression. I have few problems with the border officials, it is certainly not their fault and I feel for them that they were undoubtedly given a hard time in a touchy and emotive situation where they simply couldn’t win. What sailor said? Absolutely, US government does rule. However, nobody should be expected to misrepresent their status on an offical document. That is unreasonable, and emminently fixable. One little form to say ‘Well, we don’t think you’re married but you say you are, so just remember we don’t care what you did at home or how pretty the flowers were or how bad the families fought at the reception… far as we are concerned, you’re single, but we recognise that you say you are not. Whatever’. Why would that be so tough? It’d be more than enough of a start for me. It would keep the uppity queers quieter if not completely satisfied, and it’s the civilised thing to do. I expect more from the US; I’m rather saddened that US citizens don’t appear to share this with me. ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2003, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katie-bar-the-border-married-canadians-a-comin/202461/90 "2003-09-20T13:20:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Potter \* > \*\* I have full US citizenship; this thread, along with numerous other factors, is just making me more and more pleased that I should be able to dump it in favour of Canadian citizenship in the next few years. You think you’re sick and tired? Christ. \*\* You mean we can’t kick you out, you stupid, evil fuck? The United States is not “any kind of civilized country” because we don’t have a fucking FORM to comply with something that became legal anywhere in the world only recently? Try living someplace where the government will put you to death for calling the country uncivilized. Then maybe you’ll learn what that word really means, at least during the walk from the cell to the execution chamber. You’re too stupid to be in this country, and that’s saying something. You’re also too stupid to inflict on Canadians. Try Singapore or China or Saudi Arabia. They got ways of dealing with folks like you. ---
**Author:** ![Potter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Potter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Potter)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2003, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katie-bar-the-border-married-canadians-a-comin/202461/91 "2003-09-20T13:33:39Z")
As I said in my above post, I expect more from the US than I do other countries, I expect its people and its government to continue to grow and develop itself. If hoping one of the World’s greatest powers decides to show itself as a reasonable, civilised, intelligent country rather than a reactionary, head-in-the-sand one by producing one little document makes me an stupid, evil fuck, then so be it. I can live with that. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2003, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katie-bar-the-border-married-canadians-a-comin/202461/92 "2003-09-20T13:34:22Z")
> [@](#): > > You’re too stupid to be in this country, and that’s saying something. You’re also too stupid to inflict on Canadians. Try Singapore or China or Saudi Arabia. They got ways of dealing with folks like you. Um, **Manhattan** , does this apply to me, **Esprix** , **Matt\_Mcl** , **Otto** , **Jayjay** , **Oxymoron** , **DMark** , **Anthracite** , **Theios** , and all the other gay and lesbian Dopers who are “Folks like [**Potter**]”? Or is it just for the ones who contradict you? As much as the behavior of the INS disgusts me personally, American sovereignty demands that our definition of marriage, not a foreign one, must be observed. I hope the day will come when the US will recognize same-sex marriage, but until then gay people have to fill out forms as single people. Since I’m not disagreeing with the American position, I guess I don’t have to report to the transport to the East you apparently have planned for GLBT Dopers who do disagree with you. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2003, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katie-bar-the-border-married-canadians-a-comin/202461/93 "2003-09-20T13:34:56Z")
**Potter** , First of all I am fully and completely and in favor of gay marriage. I also believe in my heart that these two men are as married as I am. You came here expecting to argue with homophobes and, when you didn’t find any, you blindly blathered your now irrelevant argument anyway. Sorry, kid, you can be in favor of gay marriage and still be in favor of this ruling. The amazing, shining light of the Canadian government would have done the same thing several months ago and over 200 other countries still will. To paint the US (in this case anyway) as one last big old mean hold out is disingenuous. You don’t like it here, go to Canada. Don’t be suprised if they don’t let you in though. They have pretty severe immigration limits you know. You might not measure up. If you want to visit here, you have to fill out the paperwork correctly according to US law. In every single other country, including Canada, this is the case. Haj ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2003, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katie-bar-the-border-married-canadians-a-comin/202461/94 "2003-09-20T13:37:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by manhattan \* > \*\*You mean we can’t kick you out, you stupid, evil fuck? \*\* You keep a civil tongue in your head when you are talking to my boyfriend. Do you hear me? ---
**Author:** ![Potter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Potter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Potter)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2003, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katie-bar-the-border-married-canadians-a-comin/202461/95 "2003-09-20T13:46:31Z")
Again, I would like to reiterate: I don’t believe this is part of one big anti-gay agenda. I think it’s fucked up, I think it’s eminently sort-outable, I don’t blame the guys for getting pissy that they had to fill out forms as singles when they are not, I most definitely do not blame the border officials for doing their job to the letter of the law. I don’t believe the people here are homophobes, I am sorry if anyone here has inferred that from my posts, as it was certainly not my intention to imply it. What angers me is the complacency apparent in this thread, that pisses me off something fierce. If something doesn’t work and is discriminatory, I expect a big, powerful, intelligent country like the US to figure out a way to deal with it fairly. The ‘Fuck that, why the fuck should we do anything?’ attitude angers me. Why? Because you are capable of that and so much more. Hold your country to a higher standard than others. I do. ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2003, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katie-bar-the-border-married-canadians-a-comin/202461/96 "2003-09-20T13:46:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\*Um, **Manhattan** , does this apply to me, **Esprix** , **Matt\_Mcl** , **Otto** , **Jayjay** , **Oxymoron** , **DMark** , **Anthracite** , **Theios** , and all the other gay and lesbian Dopers who are “Folks like [**Potter**]”? Or is it just for the ones who contradict you? > \*\* Interestingly, **gobear** , it is possible for someone to be gay and to be other things at the very same time! Really. They can be gay and politically active. They can be gay and football fans. They can be gay and lawyers. Some people can even be more than two – a gay, politically active, football-loving lawyer. All kinds of stuff. You should give it a try sometime. In the present instance, “folks like you” refers to folks who do not believe the United States to be a “halfway-civilised country,” regardless of whether they are gay. Hope that helps. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2003, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katie-bar-the-border-married-canadians-a-comin/202461/97 "2003-09-20T13:54:52Z")
> [@](#): > > In the present instance, “folks like you” refers to folks who do not believe the United States to be a “halfway-civilised country,” regardless of whether they are gay. Hope that helps. Ah, so you don’t wish to exterminate all gay people, merely the ones who disagree with you. How very lucky for me that I defend the sovereignty of the American immigration laws. And how very illuminating that you believe bad-mouthing the United States to makes one stupid and evil and worthy of being “dealt with.” ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2003, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katie-bar-the-border-married-canadians-a-comin/202461/98 "2003-09-20T13:54:54Z")
\ Is it jus becos I is queer ? \ ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2003, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katie-bar-the-border-married-canadians-a-comin/202461/99 "2003-09-20T13:55:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Potter \* > \*\*The ‘Fuck that, why the fuck should we do anything?’ attitude angers me. Why? Because you are capable of that and so much more. Hold your country to a higher standard than others. I do. \*\* I think something should be done. I think gays in my country should be able to marry their soulmate. I think that there should be a provision that would have allowed those two guys to only have to fill out one form. Until that is the case, anyone entering here will respect our laws and jump through our hoops or stay the fuck home. To expect special treatment is laughable. I’ve been to something like 40 other countries, some of which restrict civil liberties orders of magnitude more than the US. There are other countries I will never visit until they make some changes. Here is what is bothering me. The US is being slammed way more than deserved over this. Wouldn’t you agree that there are somewhere in the neighborhood of 200 countries that would do the same thing? Wouldn’t you agree that Canada would have done the same thing this time last year? Wouldn’t you agree that the US is better than average in it’s treatment of gay people? Haj ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2003, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katie-bar-the-border-married-canadians-a-comin/202461/100 "2003-09-20T14:02:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\*Ah, so you don’t wish to exterminate all gay people, merely the ones who disagree with you. \*\* Wait. You mean that in those countries it’s possible to be put to death just for disagreeing with the government? Why, that’s uncivilized! See my point yet, Einstein? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katie-bar-the-border-married-canadians-a-comin/202461.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katie-bar-the-border-married-canadians-a-comin/202461.md?page=6)