# Katrina; It's All Part of the Plan (by the political Right) (ed. title) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 8, 2005, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katrina-its-all-part-of-the-plan-by-the-political-right-ed-title/320595 "2005-09-08T00:12:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katrina-its-all-part-of-the-plan-by-the-political-right-ed-title/320595/1 "2005-09-08T00:12:33Z")
Look, guys, I know that all this death and suffering can bring you down. But, look, it’s all part of the plan, and, after all, you can’t make an omelette without breaking a few eggs. You might have to go through a few cartons to get it right. But at the end, those of us left will be brunching on some fine vittles. This country has been moving in the wrong direction for almost a century. See, economy, business, it all goes in cycles: Up, down, around. If you’re smart, you’ll get enough money to ride it all out. Unfortunately, we got hit with a big bump back in 1929. Things got so bad, that our boys got swamped by the malcontents and subversives and we ended up with a bunch of crypto commies, fifth columnists, and pinkos running the show. That damn Roosevelt took the opportunity to put organised labour and socialist policies in the driving seat and things have been going downhill since then. Finally, though, the good guys are back in the center chair. The problem is, the welfare queens, rapists, bleeding-hearters, Euro-lovers, and poor old American Joe have gotten too used to the gravy. The good old boys have gone soft and they’ve forgotten how to fend for themselves. This whole thing disrupted God’s natural order, in which the large and in-charge do the talking, and those too stupid or lazy to become rich have to live with their bad choices. Big labour and socialism created this large middle class, which has more clout than it deserves and doesn’t know what’s good for them. We’ve got to put them back in their place, living hand-to-mouth, and too afraid to ask for raises or health care plans. There are only a few things that government is good for – police and intelligence to suppress the subversives in our midst and make sure that the public follows God’s laws and a military strong enough to make sure foreigners don’t interfere with what American business wants. Thank the stars for people like Grover Norquist who know how to bring back the real America. We’ve got to show people that government can’t help. Make it small enough to drown in a bathtub – that’s what he says. We’re already halfway there – we already got the majority of the people believing that taxes are bad, so that we can cut them whenever we want; we’ve got them believing that they will never be free of the fear of dark-skinned sneaks, so we can spend money on military adventures and get rid of this civil rights nonsense. Now we just have to show them that government can’t help them. That’s why we gutted that degenerate Clinton’s work to make F.E.M.A. an effective agency. That’s why we turned down all the help that was offered by the Chicago city government and others the week before the hurricane. ([http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2005/09/07/fema/print.html](http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2005/09/07/fema/print.html)) That’s why we’re dragging our feet on accepting help from other countries now. We’ve got to show people that government can’t do anything. (Of course, we will always take the opportunity to send some money to our friends at Halliburton. Don’t worry, they’ll give much of it back to us anyway.) That’s why we base our health care policy on the assumption that people who have health care insurance coverage are wasting our nation’s resources. (See “The Moral-Hazard Myth: Why our health-care system doesn’t work” by Malcolm Gladwell in teh Aug. 29 _New Yorker_) Once that’s done, businessmen, who are the only people who know what they’re doing in this world, will be able to call all the shots again. Look, the 2000 election shows that the government can’t guarantee democracy. Abu Ghraib shows that the government can’t guarantee civilised behaviour. Katrina shows that the government just can’t help you when you’re in trouble. Stick up for yourselves. Get as much weaponry as you can to protect yourself and find any way you can to get all the money you can. That’s what gives you the right to have options. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katrina-its-all-part-of-the-plan-by-the-political-right-ed-title/320595/2 "2005-09-08T00:30:20Z")
How is anyone suppossed to debate this? It is a mess of a parody of conservatism, libertarianism, with some good old racism thrown in. As a libertarian, I actually agree with many of your points as long as they are worded a little more intelligently. However, I have never heard any group despise the middle class like you stated. I certainly don’t believe that big labor and socialism created the middle class. I also don’t know why you threw a dab of civil rights in there. It sounds like you want Archie Bunker to show up for this debate but he was just a television character and the actor that played him is dead. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katrina-its-all-part-of-the-plan-by-the-political-right-ed-title/320595/3 "2005-09-08T01:21:19Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > It is a mess of a parody of conservatism, libertarianism, with some good old racism thrown in. That pretty accurately describes the political philosophy of the aforementioned Mr. Nordquist. And the sad part is that Grover baby has the president’s ear. The OP may be stated with hyperbole, but I don’t think the basic philosophy is too far off what the Powers that Presently Be are trying to achieve. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katrina-its-all-part-of-the-plan-by-the-political-right-ed-title/320595/4 "2005-09-08T02:06:47Z")
[http://www.fallacyfiles.org/strawman.html](http://www.fallacyfiles.org/strawman.html) ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katrina-its-all-part-of-the-plan-by-the-political-right-ed-title/320595/5 "2005-09-08T02:24:20Z")
> [@Cervaise](#): > > That pretty accurately describes the political philosophy of the aforementioned Mr. Nordquist. > > And the sad part is that Grover baby has the president’s ear. > > The OP may be stated with hyperbole, but I don’t think the basic philosophy is too far off what the Powers that Presently Be are trying to achieve. Norquist is a freak, too. Interviewing him was a weird and scary experience. He _believes_. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katrina-its-all-part-of-the-plan-by-the-political-right-ed-title/320595/6 "2005-09-08T03:56:15Z")
When come back, bring debate topic. It _looks_ like a rant, but it may be just a bit of **IMHO** sarcasm, so we’ll try there, first. [/Moderator Mode] ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katrina-its-all-part-of-the-plan-by-the-political-right-ed-title/320595/7 "2005-09-08T13:35:58Z")
I suppose I left the actual debates too far in the realm of the implied. But, actually, **Shagnasty** ’s response tells me that I’m in the ballpark here. My greatest fault seems to be that I have not laid things out “intelligently” enough. I’ll take that. **Lemur** , thanks, I know what a straw man is. But it isn’t here. My little exercise was a portrait of what I perceive is the attitude of the cabal in charge of our government right now, a cabal that believes that government should not help people and has set out to persuade people of that position by doing things badly. I threw in some things from my own point of view (I’m the one who believes that employee rights and democratic socialism are critical to creating and preserving a strong middle class.) Debate topics: 1. The botched Katrina reaction is not the result of error of incompetence, but the predictable result of an intentional policy of getting the federal government out of the business of helping people. (See the Salon link.) 2. From a big-picture point of view, where all this is leading us --\> Banana republic - this is the ultimate end of the policies being pursued by the right in ascendance. We’ll have moguls and peons and the peons will not be able to use the democratic system to make their lives any better. The rich will be protected from all harm, while the poor (nearly everyone, because there won’t be much of a middle class) will face economic, natural, ecological, industrial, public health, criminal, etc., disasters without help from the government. The current administration, in short, seeks to bring to an end modern civilised society in favour of a third-world-style tin-pot kleptocracy. That’s my proposition. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katrina-its-all-part-of-the-plan-by-the-political-right-ed-title/320595/8 "2005-09-08T13:45:15Z")
> [@](#): > > Banana republic I think the term you’re looking for is “oligarchy”. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katrina-its-all-part-of-the-plan-by-the-political-right-ed-title/320595/9 "2005-09-08T14:02:12Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > I think the term you’re looking for is “oligarchy”. Unless what he really wants is to buy some khaki shorts and one of those shirts with epaulettes on it, and a pith helmet… ---
**Author:** ![Madd\_Maxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Madd\_Maxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Madd_Maxx)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katrina-its-all-part-of-the-plan-by-the-political-right-ed-title/320595/10 "2005-09-08T14:14:51Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > \The current administration, in short, seeks to bring to an end modern civilised society in favour of a third-world-style tin-pot kleptocracy. > > That’s my proposition. Never underestimate what a good revolution or civil war can do. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katrina-its-all-part-of-the-plan-by-the-political-right-ed-title/320595/11 "2005-09-08T14:18:43Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > Unless what he really wants is to buy some khaki shorts and one of those shirts with epaulettes on it, and a pith helmet… That’d cost like $400 at Banana Republic. It’s like $30 for a T-shirt there. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2005, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katrina-its-all-part-of-the-plan-by-the-political-right-ed-title/320595/12 "2005-09-08T14:29:14Z")
I realise that there’s some joking going on here, but I just want to make sure everyone understands that “banana republic” has been a common term since before the retail outlet. ---
**Author:** ![MaryEFoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@MaryEFoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaryEFoo)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2005, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katrina-its-all-part-of-the-plan-by-the-political-right-ed-title/320595/13 "2005-09-09T00:41:46Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > is the ultimate end of the policies being pursued by the right in ascendance. We’ll have moguls and peons and the peons will not be able to use the democratic system to make their lives any better. The rich will be protected from all harm, while the poor (nearly everyone, because there won’t be much of a middle class) will face economic, natural, ecological, industrial, public health, criminal, etc., disasters without help from the government. > > The current administration, in short, seeks to bring to an end modern civilised society in favour of a third-world-style tin-pot kleptocracy. This administration’s actions and much of the right’s justifications and talking points are consistent with this concept. I just don’t want to believe it could be happening. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2005, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katrina-its-all-part-of-the-plan-by-the-political-right-ed-title/320595/14 "2005-09-09T12:49:50Z")
> [@MaryEFoo](#): > > This administration’s actions and much of the right’s justifications and talking points are consistent with this concept. I just don’t want to believe it could be happening. Maybe the Democrats just don’t want to believe it either and that’s why they’ve become such a pathetic excuse for opposition. But that only makes it likelier. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2005, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katrina-its-all-part-of-the-plan-by-the-political-right-ed-title/320595/15 "2005-09-09T14:46:38Z")
I have returned this to **GD** , changing the title from \*\* Let’s Not Get All Het Up About Katrina; It’s All Part of the Plan\*\*, based on the addition of actual debate topics in post #7. [/Moderator Mode] ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2005, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katrina-its-all-part-of-the-plan-by-the-political-right-ed-title/320595/16 "2005-09-09T15:20:04Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > … the ultimate end of the policies being pursued by the right in ascendance. We’ll have moguls and peons That’s what I get for not publishing. Ever since St. Ronald’s presidency started I’ve maintained that 6 billion peons can maintain a couple hundred million of the upper crust in luxury just as was the case in the old feudal system. Most will be vassals of Halliburton, Archer Daniels Midland, or Royal Dutch Shell. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2005, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katrina-its-all-part-of-the-plan-by-the-political-right-ed-title/320595/17 "2005-09-09T15:35:01Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I have returned this to GD. Good gods above and below…why? 🙂 > [@acsenray](#): > > 1. The botched Katrina reaction is not the result of error of incompetence, but the predictable result of an intentional policy of getting the federal government out of the business of helping people. (See the Salon link.) There are several assumptions in here. One: The reaction to Katrina was ‘botched’. Two: That the main reason it was botched is squarely at the Federal level and that the local city/state governments were blameless, or that the local guys were in on this conspiricy I suppose. That said, I’d say that your basic premise, that Republicans (who favor, in theory, smaller government) WOULD wish to down size (I disagree they want to completely get out of the ‘business of helping people’…you are thinking of libertarians there) agencies like FEMA. Its part of their basic philosophy (though I see no evidence that BUSH favors these things, nor that he holds to traditional Republican philosophy). > [@acsenray](#): > > 1. From a big-picture point of view, where all this is leading us → Banana republic - this is the ultimate end of the policies being pursued by the right in ascendance. We’ll have moguls and peons and the peons will not be able to use the democratic system to make their lives any better. The rich will be protected from all harm, while the poor (nearly everyone, because there won’t be much of a middle class) will face economic, natural, ecological, industrial, public health, criminal, etc., disasters without help from the government. Horseshit. The Republicans (and even Bush who I don’t count as very Republican except in name only) don’t want a Banana Republic, nor are we moving towards one, reguardless if you are claiming this is the goal or the end result (I’m not sure which you are getting at here). Wanting a smaller government (Republican) or wanting to privatize such services (libertarian/Libertarian) doesn’t equate to a Banana Republic. We have neither moguls NOR peons (unless your definition of those is different than mine)…we have citizens of varied means. This is like a really bad Socialist/Communist reading tract from the 60’s here. Its not even a subtle distinction, really between what we have and the situation in a Banana Republic…its a world of difference. I suggest that before you talk out of your…um, before you talk off the top of your head, you GO to a REAL Banana Republic sometime and see the difference. Its appearent that not only don’t you understand the distinctions between a libertarian (or I suppose Libertarian) viewpoint and a Republican view point (you are mixing the two all over the place in this ‘OP’), you don’t really even understand the Libertarian parts at all…nor do you seem to understand that Bush isn’t a Libertarian (nor a libertarian). Hell, he’s not even a Republican to be honest. While he might place a Republican on TV, he certainly doesn’t seem to espouse many libertarian precepts…least not that I’ve seen. -XT ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2005, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katrina-its-all-part-of-the-plan-by-the-political-right-ed-title/320595/18 "2005-09-09T15:36:13Z")
[Every flood has a silver lining.](http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05251/567892.stm) > [@](#): > > The power elite of New Orleans – whether they are still in the city or have moved temporarily to enclaves such as Destin, Fla., and Vail, Colo. – insist the remade city won’t simply restore the old order. New Orleans before the flood was burdened by a teeming underclass, substandard schools and a high crime rate. The city has few corporate headquarters. > > The new city must be something very different, Mr. Reiss says, with better services and fewer poor people. “Those who want to see this city rebuilt want to see it done in a completely different way: demographically, geographically and politically,” he says. “I’m not just speaking for myself here. The way we’ve been living is not going to happen again, or we’re out.” > > Not every white business leader or prominent family supports that view. Some black leaders and their allies in New Orleans fear that it boils down to preventing large numbers of blacks from returning to the city and eliminating the African-American voting majority. Rep. William Jefferson, a sharecropper’s son who was educated at Harvard and is currently serving his eighth term in Congress, points out that the evacuees from New Orleans already have been spread out across many states far from their old home and won’t be able to afford to return. “This is an example of poor people forced to make choices because they don’t have the money to do otherwise,” Mr. Jefferson says. > > Calvin Fayard, a wealthy white plaintiffs’ lawyer who lives near Mr. O’Dwyer, says the mass evacuation could turn a Democratic stronghold into a Republican one. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2005, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katrina-its-all-part-of-the-plan-by-the-political-right-ed-title/320595/19 "2005-09-09T15:40:52Z")
Gods forbid anyone want to bring jobs and capital into NO, ehe ElvisL1ves? You are absolutely right! I think that each hovel and shack should be rebuilt exactly as it was, no new corporations should be allowed to bring in new jobs…even the dirt should be put back as it was! Damn these slick capitalist swine to the lower hells for even suggesting such things! -XT ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2005, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katrina-its-all-part-of-the-plan-by-the-political-right-ed-title/320595/20 "2005-09-09T15:42:41Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > 1. The botched Katrina reaction is not the result of error of incompetence, but the predictable result of an intentional policy of getting the federal government out of the business of helping people. (See the Salon link.) Then why did [Bush request $51.8B](http://money.cnn.com/2005/09/07/news/bush_katrina/index.htm?section=money_latest) to aid Katrina vicitims? > [@](#): > > 1. From a big-picture point of view, where all this is leading us → Banana republic - this is the ultimate end of the policies being pursued by the right in ascendance. We’ll have moguls and peons and the peons will not be able to use the democratic system to make their lives any better. The rich will be protected from all harm, while the poor (nearly everyone, because there won’t be much of a middle class) will face economic, natural, ecological, industrial, public health, criminal, etc., disasters without help from the government. It’s much, much worse than that. Bush clearly is anti-Black, and wants to return to an antebellum situation where chattle slavery is still the law of the land. You’re just a Bush apologist in disguise, trying to put some lipstick on this pig. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katrina-its-all-part-of-the-plan-by-the-political-right-ed-title/320595.md?page=2)