# Katrina person one year later-have I missed the spoof, or is this guy for real?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katrina-person-one-year-later-have-i-missed-the-spoof-or-is-this-guy-for-real/359580
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [June 6, 2006, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katrina-person-one-year-later-have-i-missed-the-spoof-or-is-this-guy-for-real/359580 "2006-06-06T05:10:57Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 4
### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [June 6, 2006, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katrina-person-one-year-later-have-i-missed-the-spoof-or-is-this-guy-for-real/359580/61 "2006-06-06T16:51:47Z")
> [@bup](#):
>
> The _New York Times_ is usually above that. If you take into account that it’s part of the Sunday magazine, which is supposed to have a local bent, then it’s not so much about your typical Katrina victim as it is about your typical Katrina victim who’s still in FEMA housing in the New York area.
This isn’t the Times, it’s New York Magazine.
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### Author:  [@jakeline](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jakeline)
#### Post date: [June 6, 2006, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katrina-person-one-year-later-have-i-missed-the-spoof-or-is-this-guy-for-real/359580/62 "2006-06-06T16:59:20Z")
> [@Weirddave](#):
>
> Why do we as a whole believe that human beings are inherently valuable? To put it back context of the OP, if this guy were to die tomorrow, what would the loss be? The gain would be society no longer having to support this deadbeat. What’s the downside?
Among other things, potential. If the guy in question was to be properly motivated, do we know that he would always be worthless? Who knows, he could be a talented artist, writer, or scientist. Or maybe not. But the have no way to tell.
If this person was your father, brother, or son, would you have a different stance?
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### Author:  [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)
#### Post date: [June 6, 2006, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katrina-person-one-year-later-have-i-missed-the-spoof-or-is-this-guy-for-real/359580/63 "2006-06-06T17:00:12Z")
> [@Hampshire](#):
>
> The problem with stories like these is that the media likes to present them in a way that makes Joe Sixpack and Sally Housecoat think “Look, your average Katrina victim” when in reality they have found a single extreme case of loophole abuse.
>
> The media is all about sensationalism and extremes. Unfortunately the public views these things as your average case scenario.
Actually, Joe and Sally have the cognitive wherewithal to read or listen and understand subtext. They’re just not given credit for that most of the time. I read that article, I see that photograph and lo and behold- a man taking advantage of the system. Is he presented as a man symbolic if thousands? Hundreds? Dozens? He is not. He’s presented as one of just a few ( three, yes? ) who have abused the system to such a rarified degree.
The public gets it, and is allowed to be incensed even if it isn’t a pandemic problem.
Go easy on poor **Dave**. He’s just feeling his oats cause he got away with just a one month suspension. He knows not what he sayeth.
🙂
Cartooniverse
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### Author:  [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)
#### Post date: [June 6, 2006, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katrina-person-one-year-later-have-i-missed-the-spoof-or-is-this-guy-for-real/359580/64 "2006-06-06T17:14:50Z")
> [@Triskadecamus](#):
>
> Of course that will piss off the most “conservative” observers, since he is going to be continuing to cost society money. Reality is, he will always cost society money. He probably always has. It’s inevitable that the mentally ill cost society money. Just letting them die would be cheaper, but that choice has its own drawbacks for society.
>
> Tris
Please don’t stereotype conservatives. I am pretty conservative, and I have no problem with society helping people who cannot help themselves…even if it means for the rest of their lives. My problem is with people who CAN help themselves, or worse, with programs that encourage people to NOT help themselves, even if they can. I don’t know which situation this one is, but somebody should try to find out, so the guy can either get the help he needs, or get a job.
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### Author:  [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)
#### Post date: [June 6, 2006, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katrina-person-one-year-later-have-i-missed-the-spoof-or-is-this-guy-for-real/359580/65 "2006-06-06T17:16:28Z")
> [@Jonathan Chance](#):
>
> Close. Just over 1%. 😃
OK-could I see your work? I thought it was 4/300 or 300 divided by 4…oops, never mind.
See, I told you I was bad in math. I rest my case.
As to inherant worth–that’s a slippery slope indeed. Who is to say with proper care and attention that this man couldn’t be a valuable asset to society? Is Brittany Spears a valued asset to society? Apparently, yes, but I don’t think so. So, who decides who lives or dies? Brittany or refugee? Let’s throw them in a lion pit and see who survives. :rolleyes:
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### Author:  [@Askia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askia)
#### Post date: [June 6, 2006, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katrina-person-one-year-later-have-i-missed-the-spoof-or-is-this-guy-for-real/359580/66 "2006-06-06T17:16:33Z")
Another thing worth mentioning is we don’t really know the ages or health disposition of the other three evacuees. One guy that is mentioned is a diabetic.
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### Author:  [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)
#### Post date: [June 6, 2006, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katrina-person-one-year-later-have-i-missed-the-spoof-or-is-this-guy-for-real/359580/67 "2006-06-06T17:30:20Z")
You’re a parasite if you’re too depressed to work, but a valuable human being if you don’t have a brain?
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### Author:  [@Plynck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plynck)
#### Post date: [June 6, 2006, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katrina-person-one-year-later-have-i-missed-the-spoof-or-is-this-guy-for-real/359580/68 "2006-06-06T17:34:50Z")
> [@jakeline](#):
>
> You must be fucking ecstatic then, asshole.
Game, set and match.
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### Author:  [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)
#### Post date: [June 6, 2006, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katrina-person-one-year-later-have-i-missed-the-spoof-or-is-this-guy-for-real/359580/69 "2006-06-06T17:35:51Z")
Hehe. I knew I was gonna get plowed for this one, I’ve alredy been called “warped”, I wonder what’s next? In any event, I meant this more as a great debate type question, in fact I debated starting a thread in GD as I was typing my previous post, but I was pressed for time and just posted it here. That was probably a mistake, I’m going to start a GD thread posthaste. I’ll link it here after it’s posted. I will reply to what some of you have said there.
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### Author:  [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)
#### Post date: [June 6, 2006, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katrina-person-one-year-later-have-i-missed-the-spoof-or-is-this-guy-for-real/359580/70 "2006-06-06T17:40:31Z")
> [@Weirddave](#):
>
> \ People like the guy in the article, habitual repeat criminals, hopeless drug addicts, etc…they are nothing but parasites. They’re useless. Any value they might have from picking up trash or amusing people is far outweighed by their cost to society. Shooting them in the back of the head would definitely benefit society as a whole, yet we don’t do that. Why? Why do we as a whole believe that human beings are inherently valuable? To put it back context of the OP, if this guy were to die tomorrow, what would the loss be? The gain would be society no longer having to support this deadbeat. What’s the downside?
Everybody is tempted to think this way occasionally. Unfortunately, it is an irredeemably inhuman and cynical way to think. Whenever I’m tempted to give up on people like the Katrina victim in the article, I think of a photo I have on my wall at home: [this one](http://memory.loc.gov/pnp/ppmsc/00300/00346r.jpg). It’s a rather famous photo of a prison yard in Louisiana, full of murderers, thieves, rapists, and the dregs of society. One could possibly argue that, given the times, some of these men may have been railroaded or innocent, but there is no doubt that most of them were guilty as sin, and doubtless “useless” by your reckoning.
However, see the guy standing under the left window, without a hat? He was convicted of murder and assault, and was perfectly guilty. He’s also Huddie Ledbetter, better known as Leadbelly, possibly the greatest exponent of black American folk music of the 20th century. He was a parasite. A social leech. Useless. But he was enormously talented, and one of the greatest musicians this country has ever seen. All it took was a fellow named Alan Lomax to see his titanic potential and encourage him to realize it.
Whenever I think of a person as useless, I think of that photo, and I realize that I have no way of truly knowing what potential a person has, and I have no right to even _think_ I am in any way qualified to judge that he “be shot in the back of the head,” and by God, neither do you.
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### Author:  [@davenportavenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davenportavenger)
#### Post date: [June 6, 2006, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katrina-person-one-year-later-have-i-missed-the-spoof-or-is-this-guy-for-real/359580/71 "2006-06-06T18:09:54Z")
> [@Askia](#):
>
> Oh, and leaving out the reporter’s bias for a second (that line about Halle Berry and “lazy lust”) – if he’s been assigned a caseworker, isn’t it likely this guy is mentally ill?
My dad is a welfare caseworker and deals with all kinds of people on welfare, food stamps, and SSI, not just MI folks.
Also, **Tris** , you might want to let up on stereotyping the mentally ill too.
> [@](#):
>
> However, see the guy standing under the left window, without a hat? He was convicted of murder and assault, and was perfectly guilty. He’s also Huddie Ledbetter, better known as Leadbelly, possibly the greatest exponent of black American folk music of the 20th century. He was a parasite. A social leech. Useless. But he was enormously talented, and one of the greatest musicians this country has ever seen. All it took was a fellow named Alan Lomax to see his titanic potential and encourage him to realize it.
>
> Whenever I think of a person as useless, I think of that photo, and I realize that I have no way of truly knowing what potential a person has, and I have no right to even think I am in any way qualified to judge that he “be shot in the back of the head,” and by God, neither do you.
OK total hijack but IMO just cuz a guy can stamp out some pretty music does not excuse murder. Murder is the worst crime someone can commit and if it were up to me he would be shot in the back of the head. It’s only the inherent classism and racism of the state that keeps me from being pro-death penalty. When you’re listening to his tunes, try to think about the person he killed, and how they’ll never hear anything again.
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### Author:  [@davenportavenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davenportavenger)
#### Post date: [June 6, 2006, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katrina-person-one-year-later-have-i-missed-the-spoof-or-is-this-guy-for-real/359580/72 "2006-06-06T18:13:36Z")
BTW the second quoted thing in the above post was by **Ogre** , sorry for not marking the name.
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### Author:  [@Asimovian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asimovian)
#### Post date: [June 6, 2006, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katrina-person-one-year-later-have-i-missed-the-spoof-or-is-this-guy-for-real/359580/73 "2006-06-06T18:19:53Z")
> [@davenportavenger](#):
>
> OK total hijack but IMO just cuz a guy can stamp out some pretty music does not excuse murder. Murder is the worst crime someone can commit and if it were up to me he would be shot in the back of the head. It’s only the inherent classism and racism of the state that keeps me from being pro-death penalty. When you’re listening to his tunes, try to think about the person he killed, and how they’ll never hear anything again.
I may be mistaken, but I think that **Ogre** was pointing out that, had Leadbelly’s potential been realized sooner, he might not have done the horrible things he did. That may or may not be true, but I didn’t get the impression that Ogre was trying to say that the music in any way diminished the man’s crimes.
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### Author:  [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)
#### Post date: [June 6, 2006, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katrina-person-one-year-later-have-i-missed-the-spoof-or-is-this-guy-for-real/359580/74 "2006-06-06T18:21:06Z")
> [@Askia](#):
>
> We may not like to acknowlegde it, but parasites have the tremendous benefit of being our first line of defense against new and experienced predators who prowl the streets looking for people to exploit
I agree with most of your post, but I have an issue with this. The hopeless of society serve us by being our cannon fodder? That’s pretty dehumanizing. Suppose we were to somehow eliminate the predators. Would you then be OK with executing the unproductive?
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### Author:  [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)
#### Post date: [June 6, 2006, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katrina-person-one-year-later-have-i-missed-the-spoof-or-is-this-guy-for-real/359580/75 "2006-06-06T18:22:10Z")
> [@davenportavenger](#):
>
> My dad is a welfare caseworker and deals with all kinds of people on welfare, food stamps, and SSI, not just MI folks.
>
> Also, **Tris** , you might want to let up on stereotyping the mentally ill too.
>
> OK total hijack but IMO just cuz a guy can stamp out some pretty music does not excuse murder. Murder is the worst crime someone can commit and if it were up to me he would be shot in the back of the head. It’s only the inherent classism and racism of the state that keeps me from being pro-death penalty. When you’re listening to his tunes, try to think about the person he killed, and how they’ll never hear anything again.
Perhaps. It’s a difficult issue. Does Wagner’s music make up for the fact that he was an Antisemite? Does the fact that Leadbelly’s music (and that he was legally pardoned for his crimes) almost singlehandedly popularized black folk music, and therefore led to not only the explosion of Blues and Rock and Roll, but most other forms of American folk music, and changed every aspect of music all over the world, make up for his crimes?
Dunno, and it’s beside the point of the argument anyway.
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### Author:  [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)
#### Post date: [June 6, 2006, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katrina-person-one-year-later-have-i-missed-the-spoof-or-is-this-guy-for-real/359580/76 "2006-06-06T18:24:19Z")
> [@davenportavenger](#):
>
> OK total hijack but IMO just cuz a guy can stamp out some pretty music does not excuse murder. Murder is the worst crime someone can commit and if it were up to me he would be shot in the back of the head. It’s only the inherent classism and racism of the state that keeps me from being pro-death penalty. When you’re listening to his tunes, try to think about the person he killed, and how they’ll never hear anything again.
I understand the concept of “nothing excuses murder” although I would like to point out that **Ogre** did not seem to be excusing murder rather he seemed to be suggesting that the murderer may have some qualities that makes him valuable as well. Not trying to compare various worths and all.
A position I agree w/.
I guess I’d ask you to think about the various scenarios your point would make - an accidental death where one was careless, but had no intent to kill, the person who died is just as dead, and still cannot hear music. the murderer of Jeffrey Dahmer, Jeff’s dead, can’t hear music etc. Certainly there are those (and apparently you are one, except for the whole classism/racism stuff) who believed that he should have been executed - what then for the guy who gave you what you thought should have happened?
In any event, the point that was being made was not that the murder was ‘excused’ in any way, but that the worth of a human being is not so easily quantified.
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### Author:  [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)
#### Post date: [June 6, 2006, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katrina-person-one-year-later-have-i-missed-the-spoof-or-is-this-guy-for-real/359580/77 "2006-06-06T18:30:45Z")
> [@Asimovian](#):
>
> I may be mistaken, but I think that **Ogre** was pointing out that, had Leadbelly’s potential been realized sooner, he might not have done the horrible things he did. That may or may not be true, but I didn’t get the impression that Ogre was trying to say that the music in any way diminished the man’s crimes.
Almost. What I’m saying is more like, regardless of what Leadbelly did personally, his music, and the music he inspired and enabled after him, stands on its own as an absolute good. It’s a seperate entity, but one that could not be realized without the man himself. A conundrum, that something so perfect could come from someone so deeply and thoroughly flawed…but that’s the basic truth. We’re all flawed, and we all (well, most of us) have enormous potential that can usually be harvested…therefore, how do we judge? How do we say that the lazy asshole bum living off the government dole in NYC is absolutely worthless, and, in Dave’s words, should be shot?
We don’t. It’s ridiculous.
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### Author:  [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)
#### Post date: [June 6, 2006, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katrina-person-one-year-later-have-i-missed-the-spoof-or-is-this-guy-for-real/359580/78 "2006-06-06T18:32:43Z")
> [@davenportavenger](#):
>
> OK total hijack but IMO just cuz a guy can stamp out some pretty music does not excuse murder. Murder is the worst crime someone can commit and if it were up to me he would be shot in the back of the head. It’s only the inherent classism and racism of the state that keeps me from being pro-death penalty. When you’re listening to his tunes, try to think about the person he killed, and how they’ll never hear anything again.
Do you know who he killed? Do you know why it happened? Do you know, most importantly, when and where it happened, and why that is significant in attempting to determine the nature of the crime? For that matter, do you know anything about Leadbelly at all besides what you’ve read in this thread? And lastly, do you think you know enough to so cavalierly decide wether or not this man deserved to be “shot in the back of the head?”
And, incidentally, where has anyone in this thread “excused murder”?
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### Author:  [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)
#### Post date: [June 6, 2006, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katrina-person-one-year-later-have-i-missed-the-spoof-or-is-this-guy-for-real/359580/79 "2006-06-06T18:42:42Z")
> [@Weirddave](#):
>
> Perhaps the pit isn’t the place to be asking an honest question, but I’ll take a stab at it anyway( actually, it’s the perfect place cuz I’m gonna get toasted for this one ). Just what are these drawbacks? I’ve always wondered about all of these people who so viehamently assert that human life has inherent value. Why? I just don’t get it. Personally, I think that human life does have value, but it’s based upon what individual humans _do_.
Two very inter-related reasons:
1. Humans, and other social animals, are successful in part because they protect even the least valuable of their clan; it’s good for a social animal to have that instinct.
2. You never know what value a person might have _tomorrow_.
And I think most people have answered your question honestly. You’re going to get the same kinds of answers if you do create the thread in GD.
---
### Author:  [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)
#### Post date: [June 6, 2006, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katrina-person-one-year-later-have-i-missed-the-spoof-or-is-this-guy-for-real/359580/80 "2006-06-06T18:53:20Z")
> [@bup](#):
>
> And I think most people have answered your question honestly. You’re going to get the same kinds of answers if you do create the thread in GD.
I think so too. As to the GD thread, well, [let’s find out, shall we](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=7462417#post7462417)? 🙂
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