# Katy Perry, Dr. Luke, Max Martin (et al.) = plagiarists **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 30, 2019, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katy-perry-dr-luke-max-martin-et-al-plagiarists/837854 "2019-07-30T03:19:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2019, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katy-perry-dr-luke-max-martin-et-al-plagiarists/837854/21 "2019-07-30T19:08:22Z")
> [@control-z](#): > > Is it plagiarism if you’ve never heard the song you supposedly plagiarized? Are you supposed to have listened to every song ever made to be sure you don’t infringe? > > There needs to be some sort of musical complexity score and tunes that aren’t high in complexity and would be easy to make from basic notes shouldn’t be copyrightable. IMO. Again, there’s no question of plagiarism here. It’s copyright infringement. To be found liable for copyright infringement one must have copied That means that independent creation is allowed. But because of direct evidence of copying can be difficult to find, courts allow an inference of copying if you prove that the defendants had access to the work and that the allegedly infringing work is substantially similar to the plaintiff’s work. It’s the plaintiff’s version to prove either copying or access and substantial similarity. So no, no one is necessarily responsible for knowing every work in existence. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2019, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katy-perry-dr-luke-max-martin-et-al-plagiarists/837854/22 "2019-07-30T19:16:12Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > “liable” could just mean “legally liable to pay back any money they made from it”, maybe? Sure, they didn’t plagiarise, it would be wrong to label them a plagiarist because of this decision. It would be wrong to label them as “plagiarists” because the court wasn’t considering any question of plagiarism. Indeed there is no federal action for plagiarism. However, they were found liable for infringement. So it would be accurate to label them as “infringers.” You can’t be liable for infringement without a finding that you did all the things that define infringement. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2019, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katy-perry-dr-luke-max-martin-et-al-plagiarists/837854/23 "2019-07-30T19:36:42Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Strong copyright laws are good news for songwriters. There is an underlying reality to this case. The person who wrote the music for “Dark Horse” either intentionally copied the beat and riff from “Joyful Noise”, or they did not. The reality of this truth is unknown to just about everyone except the person who penned those sections of the song, and I don’t pretend to know what actually happened. If the beat and riff were intentionally copied and credit not given, then this is good news. If the beat and riff were NOT intentionally copied, if they were independently written and just happened to be very similar, it is not good news for “songwriters”. A bunch of songwriters are now on the hook for damages to other people who had nothing to do with the creation of their song. These are songwriters who only got tagged for the similarity because the song they wrote was spectacularly successful. If this scenario is true, EVERY songwriter is at risk for their most popular songs to be subject to lawsuit, because they can unintentionally violate copyright, and that is NOT good news. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Bredin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@John\_Bredin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Bredin)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2019, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katy-perry-dr-luke-max-martin-et-al-plagiarists/837854/24 "2019-07-30T19:39:07Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Music sounds similar to other music all the time, and laypeople are remarkably bad at being able to even tell if they actually are similar. > [Snip] > Plus, if you know anything about writing music, then you know that part of how it works is that your brain remembers music you’ve heard before, but combines it in new ways. I literally just got through watching a video about how Koji Kondo, the composer for Super Mario Bros and The Legend of Zelda,got his influences. And there are some songs that sound similar to pieces of the SMB or Zelda themes. It was unmistakable, but no one who knows anything about music would call it plagiarism. > > This trend isn’t helpful to the little guy, who almost wasn’t even harmed by this in any way. It really does seem to be trying to copyright the basic building blocks of music. It’s a very worrying trend. A [melancholy elephant](http://www.spiderrobinson.com/melancholyelephants.html) might well agree with you. ([Part 3](http://www.spiderrobinson.com/melancholyelephants3.html) gets to the crux of the matter). ---
**Author:** ![control-z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eada6e/32.png) [@control-z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/control-z)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2019, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katy-perry-dr-luke-max-martin-et-al-plagiarists/837854/25 "2019-07-30T20:03:26Z")
Someone on Reddit wrote the following: > [@](#): > > Dark Horse’s is: > > ``` > C# C# C# C# > C C > A# > F > > ``` > > Joyful Noise’s is: > > ``` > C C C C > B B B > A > C C C C > B B B > F > > ``` Looks a lot different to me. I don’t know enough about music to confirm or dispute that. ---
**Author:** ![actualliberalnotoneofthose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e79b87/32.png) [@actualliberalnotoneofthose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/actualliberalnotoneofthose)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2019, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katy-perry-dr-luke-max-martin-et-al-plagiarists/837854/26 "2019-07-30T20:14:26Z")
> [@That\_Don\_Guy](#): > > I have a feeling California’s “anti-deep-pockets” law has something to do with this. In California, a jury can distribute responsibility - and the resulting damages owed - in pretty much any way it wants among the defendants. They can throw a wide net over all of them at first, and then work out the details later. I’m curious about this because I wonder how much Juicy J really profited off this. If he got writing credit for his verse I guess he got royalties for that (and should he not, for words that he wrote and performed himself?), but a lot of times guest rappers (and ghost “producers”) and performers/musicians get a fee and very little if anything of the back end. I seem to recall the “Blurred Lines” case assigning damages that seemed way out of line with the actual profits of performers in the digital age of streaming and Youtube comprising the bulk of “sales.” So, I’m just wondering how much the guy 6th in line is going to have to pay for agreeing to be a guest on a single that sold a bunch of 99 cent downloads and comprised 1/13th or 1/16th of an album that sold about 4 million units worldwide. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2019, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katy-perry-dr-luke-max-martin-et-al-plagiarists/837854/27 "2019-07-30T21:06:07Z")
> [@control-z](#): > > Someone on Reddit wrote the following: > > Looks a lot different to me. I don’t know enough about music to confirm or dispute that. IF you adjusted them for the same key (which is more fair to compare), “Dark Horse” would be: C C C C B B A E Closer. The beat itself sounds like Joyful Noise ripping off a generic Southern rap snap-style beat. Nothing particularly new about that that I can tell. The _only_ thing that gives me pause is the “yeah, y’all know what it is” at the start of the Katy Perry song and the “You know what it is” at the Christian rock song. That, to me, makes me doubt the claim that no one among the songwriting or production crew had heard the Flame song before. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2019, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katy-perry-dr-luke-max-martin-et-al-plagiarists/837854/28 "2019-07-30T21:20:43Z")
Here’s [Rick Beato](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4MuhPqfIk4)’s well-reasoned take on the lawsuit. (He’s one of my favorite musical Youtubers; he’s got bona fides as a musician, producer, songwriter, and educator. Very even-handed and intelligent.) ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2019, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katy-perry-dr-luke-max-martin-et-al-plagiarists/837854/29 "2019-07-30T21:41:28Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > they all profited from the illegal plagiarizing, after all. Cite? Your link doesn’t discuss plagiarism. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2019, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katy-perry-dr-luke-max-martin-et-al-plagiarists/837854/30 "2019-07-30T21:41:47Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Plus, if you know anything about writing music, then you know that part of how it works is that your brain remembers music you’ve heard before, but combines it in new ways. I literally just got through watching a video about how Koji Kondo, the composer for Super Mario Bros and The Legend of Zelda,got his influences. And there are some songs that sound similar to pieces of the SMB or Zelda themes. It was unmistakable, but no one who knows anything about music would call it plagiarism. Hah. This one literally just now showed up in my Youtube feed. [Here it is for those interested](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBNJ5cAxcQ8). Most of those are closer than the similarities I hear in this particular lawsuit. ---
**Author:** ![Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Go_Arachnid_Laser_1)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2019, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katy-perry-dr-luke-max-martin-et-al-plagiarists/837854/31 "2019-07-31T04:38:33Z")
To me, there are three similar elements in the song: The base melody (in a similar key), the “y’all know what it is” at the start, and the male chorus going “whoop, whoop, whoop”. In a world of infinite musical possibilities, chances of these three elements coinciding in two unrelated songs are staggeringly low. No, more like literally impossible. The authors claiming that, at least one of them never heard of the original is nonsense. They practically sampled the thing and weren’t even trying to hide it. They were so clearly doing that, seems to me, somebody forgot to tell the label’s lawyers to contact Flame and tell him about it. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2019, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katy-perry-dr-luke-max-martin-et-al-plagiarists/837854/32 "2019-07-31T05:13:16Z")
> [@Go\_Arachnid\_Laser](#): > > To me, there are three similar elements in the song: The base melody (in a similar key), the “y’all know what it is” at the start, and the male chorus going “whoop, whoop, whoop”. > > In a world of infinite musical possibilities, chances of these three elements coinciding in two unrelated songs are staggeringly low. No, more like literally impossible. > > The authors claiming that, at least one of them never heard of the original is nonsense. They practically sampled the thing and weren’t even trying to hide it. They were so clearly doing that, seems to me, somebody forgot to tell the label’s lawyers to contact Flame and tell him about it. The melody for _two bars_ is similar (not identical). Well, it’s actually not even the melody. It’s a synth riff underlying a rap in the one case. The rap doesn’t have a proper melody. Dark Horse does. You could go through every song released in the last 10 years and I doubt you could find a single one that doesn’t have two bars of its melody that are similar to at least one other song. These two songs are less similar to each other than every song in the infamous “Pachabel rant” video is to every other song in that video. ---
**Author:** ![Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Go_Arachnid_Laser_1)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2019, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katy-perry-dr-luke-max-martin-et-al-plagiarists/837854/33 "2019-07-31T06:02:46Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > The melody for _two bars_ is similar (not identical). Well, it’s actually not even the melody. It’s a synth riff underlying a rap in the one case. The rap doesn’t have a proper melody. Dark Horse does. You could go through every song released in the last 10 years and I doubt you could find a single one that doesn’t have two bars of its melody that are similar to at least one other song. > > These two songs are less similar to each other than every song in the infamous “Pachabel rant” video is to every other song in that video. No. I’m not a musician, I have no idea of bars or which notes are which or anything like that, but when I hear the base music for the Flame song, I absolutely recognize it as Dark Horse. I don’t think it’s any other Katy Perry song, or any other song from anybody else. I’m absolutely, 100% recognizing it as the intro for Dark Horse. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2019, 8:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katy-perry-dr-luke-max-martin-et-al-plagiarists/837854/34 "2019-07-31T08:23:58Z")
> [@Go\_Arachnid\_Laser](#): > > No. > > **I’m not a musician** , I have no idea of bars or which notes are which or anything like that, but when I hear the base music for the Flame song, I absolutely recognize it as Dark Horse. I don’t think it’s any other Katy Perry song, or any other song from anybody else. I’m absolutely, 100% recognizing it as the intro for Dark Horse. My bold. This is the problem. It’s a bit like accusing Ferrari of copying Lamborghini because they both make red cars and somebody who’s “not a car person” thinks they look the same. If every song had to be completely unique and not sound anything like another song, the entire music industry would grind to a halt. Blues would have been still-born. There are only 12 notes, there are many ways they can be put together but the number of ways they can be put together and sound “musical” is relatively limited. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2019, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katy-perry-dr-luke-max-martin-et-al-plagiarists/837854/35 "2019-07-31T09:15:04Z")
No, I don’t agree. Lamborghini copies Ferrari, everyone knows that. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2019, 9:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katy-perry-dr-luke-max-martin-et-al-plagiarists/837854/36 "2019-07-31T09:46:28Z")
The joke’s on them. I already have the copyright on C#, the bass clef, and 3/4s time. ---
**Author:** ![Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Go_Arachnid_Laser_1)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2019, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katy-perry-dr-luke-max-martin-et-al-plagiarists/837854/37 "2019-07-31T11:43:01Z")
> [@Richard\_Pearse](#): > > If every song had to be completely unique and not sound anything like another song, the entire music industry would grind to a halt. Blues would have been still-born. There are only 12 notes, there are many ways they can be put together but the number of ways they can be put together and sound “musical” is relatively limited. Absolutely. And that’s why if the only evidence is that there’s a similarly recognizable tune you could happily give Perry, Luke, Martin et al the benefit of the doubt. But you pair this with the “Y’all know what it is” and the whoops, and the possibility of coincidence starts becoming really, really low. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Bredin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@John\_Bredin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Bredin)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2019, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katy-perry-dr-luke-max-martin-et-al-plagiarists/837854/38 "2019-07-31T16:45:42Z")
> [@Go\_Arachnid\_Laser](#): > > Absolutely. And that’s why if the only evidence is that there’s a similarly recognizable tune you could happily give Perry, Luke, Martin et al the benefit of the doubt. > But you pair this with the “Y’all know what it is” and the whoops, and the possibility of coincidence starts becoming really, really low. When you google _“Y’all know what it is”_ the first two results are two different songs with that title. Googling _“Y’all know what it is” meaning_ comes up with two **more** songs with that lyric as the first results, neither song being Dark Horse **or** Joyful Noise. It seems to me that that phrase isn’t as unique as all that. :dubious: [Cite.](https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Y%27all+know+what+it+is%22&rlz=1C1ZCEB_enUS851US851&oq=%22Y%27all+know+what+it+is%22&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.12455j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8) [Cite 2.](https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1ZCEB_enUS851US851&biw=1280&bih=612&ei=g8RBXZ2QIMSwtQW78o3wCQ&q=%22y%27all+know+what+it+is%22+meaning&oq=%22y%27all+know+what+it+is%22+meaning&gs_l=psy-ab.3...6868.9332..9619...0.0..0.73.131.2......0....1..gws-wiz.......0i71j33i299.xBkaM9LaUI4&ved=0ahUKEwjd3b_GzN_jAhVEWK0KHTt5A54Q4dUDCAo&uact=5) ---
**Author:** ![Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Go_Arachnid_Laser_1)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2019, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katy-perry-dr-luke-max-martin-et-al-plagiarists/837854/39 "2019-07-31T18:51:16Z")
> [@John\_Bredin](#): > > When you google _“Y’all know what it is”_ the first two results are two different songs with that title. Googling _“Y’all know what it is” meaning_ Yes. But it doesn’t really need to be unique. It’s unique enough that only a small percent of songs have it. Now, before you mention it, there’s also plenty of songs with guys screaming “whoop, whoop, whoop.” And if the only thing in common between the two songs was either of these three elements, sure, there would be very little legal leeway here. Two? A bit too coincidental. Way too coincidental, let’s be honest. Three? Come on. No, seriously. Come on. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katy-perry-dr-luke-max-martin-et-al-plagiarists/837854/40 "2019-08-01T20:40:07Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **Go\_Arachnid\_Laser** : > > In a world of infinite musical possibilities, chances of these three elements coinciding in two unrelated songs are staggeringly low. No, more like literally impossible. In a world of infinite musical possibilities, the chances of those three elements coinciding would be 1.0, as high as it is possible for a chance to get. In the real world, the chances are some amount lower than that. How much lower? I dunno; do the math and tell me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katy-perry-dr-luke-max-martin-et-al-plagiarists/837854.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katy-perry-dr-luke-max-martin-et-al-plagiarists/837854.md?page=3)