# Katy Perry, Dr. Luke, Max Martin (et al.) = plagiarists **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 30, 2019, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katy-perry-dr-luke-max-martin-et-al-plagiarists/837854 "2019-07-30T03:19:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katy-perry-dr-luke-max-martin-et-al-plagiarists/837854/41 "2019-08-01T21:12:44Z")
> [@Go\_Arachnid\_Laser](#): > > Now, before you mention it, there’s also plenty of songs with guys screaming “whoop, whoop, whoop.” Maybe I’m misunderstanding, but I have no idea what the “whoop whoop whoop” is you’re referring to. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katy-perry-dr-luke-max-martin-et-al-plagiarists/837854/42 "2019-08-01T22:17:50Z")
Another [video by a musician/producer/educator](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4MuhPqfIk4) explaining why it’s a bad result. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katy-perry-dr-luke-max-martin-et-al-plagiarists/837854/43 "2019-08-01T22:28:51Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Another [video by a musician/producer/educator](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4MuhPqfIk4) explaining why it’s a bad result. Psst. Post #28. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katy-perry-dr-luke-max-martin-et-al-plagiarists/837854/44 "2019-08-01T22:33:18Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Psst. Post #28. :smack::smack::smack::smack::smack::smack::smack::smack::smack::smack: ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2019, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katy-perry-dr-luke-max-martin-et-al-plagiarists/837854/45 "2019-08-02T00:00:57Z")
[Crime pays](https://apnews.com/7ce2c30fc5214bbc9bd145bf00f35490): > [@](#): > > Katy Perry, her collaborators and her record label must pay more than $2.78 million because the pop star’s 2013 hit “Dark Horse” copied a Christian rap song, a jury decided Thursday. > [@](#): > > “These defendants have made millions and millions of dollars from their infringement of the plaintiff’s copyright,” Gray’s attorney, Michael A. Kahn, told the jury. > > Perry herself was hit for just over $550,000, with Capitol Records responsible for the vast majority of the money. > [@](#): > > Perry’s attorney, Christine Lepera, said they plan to vigorously fight the decision. > > “The writers of Dark Horse consider this a travesty of justice,” Lepera said. > > Both sides agree that Perry herself made a profit of $2.4 million, while Gray’s attorneys argued that her song had grossed about $41 million. > [@](#): > > Collectively, the songwriters earned about $10 million on the song before expenses and Capitol Records earned $31 million, leading to the plaintiffs’ $41 million figure. So she’ll use the money she got from this crime to fight being held responsible for this crime. What an awesome justice system the US has! ---
**Author:** ![Translucent\_Daydream](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/translucent_daydream/32/16170_2.png) [@Translucent\_Daydream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Translucent_Daydream)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2019, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katy-perry-dr-luke-max-martin-et-al-plagiarists/837854/46 "2019-08-02T00:19:52Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Howdy! I’m a musician and songwriter. I’m also an ASCAP member. And I think this is a good decision. I’m pleased that the court found everyone involved liable; they all profited from the illegal plagiarizing, after all. So am I, I am also a ASCAP member and publisher. and I also am a part owner of a record label. This is bad news IMHO. If the burden of proof isn’t there that it was directly plagiarized, then any bozo that I have never heard of can sue me because I have a song that goes from minor to major to minor to major for example. Most lay people have a hard time detecting a specific key, but they can pick out a minor or a seventh pretty easy from a major. I am in a band that is represented by my own label (we do other bands too) but what is to stop someone that had a song is 1963 that nobody heard of that goes Am C9 Dsustained2 G Major from suing me when I have a song that goes in a similar arrangement, albeit different keys? Or even the same chords? They sound like complicated chords to the average joe, but any half rate guitarist is well versed in these so called “cowboy chords” because they are easy to hop around on each other. Most of our country acts know seven chords, they just move a capo up and down the neck to keep the album from sounding like the same long song. The only people winning here are lawyers. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2019, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katy-perry-dr-luke-max-martin-et-al-plagiarists/837854/47 "2019-08-02T00:45:31Z")
If you make it big enough that one of the people involved in a 1963 song that nobody heard of sues you, it’s obvious that you’ll have more than enough money to pay them off AND fight back with what’s left over. If you don’t make it big, how would anyone hear your song to know to sue you? The more likely event, as this case shows, is that your obscure band finds itself being copied by a more popular artist. And now, as this case shows, at least you’ll get compensated somewhat for the theft. Stop worrying about how something might adversely affect you if you become a zillionaire. You’re not going to be one; you’re the underdog. ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2019, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katy-perry-dr-luke-max-martin-et-al-plagiarists/837854/48 "2019-08-02T01:01:43Z")
> [@Go\_Arachnid\_Laser](#): > > Two? A bit too coincidental. Way too coincidental, let’s be honest. > Three? Come on. No, seriously. Come on. Could be. But even if they “stole” those similarities, give them a small piece of the songwriting credit. Like you would for using a small sample. At worst they took a couple small pieces of an existing song and incorporated it into a new song. This has been going on for hundreds or thousands of years. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2019, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katy-perry-dr-luke-max-martin-et-al-plagiarists/837854/49 "2019-08-02T01:36:01Z")
> [@Translucent\_Daydream](#): > > So am I, I am also a ASCAP member and publisher. and I also am a part owner of a record label. This is bad news IMHO. If the burden of proof isn’t there that it was directly plagiarized, then any bozo that I have never heard of can sue me because I have a song that goes from minor to major to minor to major for example. Most lay people have a hard time detecting a specific key, but they can pick out a minor or a seventh pretty easy from a major. When was the standard ever that there was direct proof that a musician ripped off another song? ---
**Author:** ![Tinker\_Grey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tinker_grey/32/8136_2.png) [@Tinker\_Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tinker_Grey)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2019, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katy-perry-dr-luke-max-martin-et-al-plagiarists/837854/50 "2019-08-02T03:00:13Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Here’s [Rick Beato](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4MuhPqfIk4)’s well-reasoned take on the lawsuit. (He’s one of my favorite musical Youtubers; he’s got bona fides as a musician, producer, songwriter, and educator. Very even-handed and intelligent.) I was going to post that. Kudos. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2019, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katy-perry-dr-luke-max-martin-et-al-plagiarists/837854/51 "2019-08-02T03:32:06Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > When was the standard ever that there was direct proof that a musician ripped off another song? Copying must be proven in order to establish copyright infringement. Proof can be direct or indirect, but the law requires a finding of copying. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2019, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katy-perry-dr-luke-max-martin-et-al-plagiarists/837854/52 "2019-08-02T03:34:23Z")
> [@Translucent\_Daydream](#): > > So am I, I am also a ASCAP member and publisher. and I also am a part owner of a record label. This is bad news IMHO. If the burden of proof isn’t there that it was directly plagiarized This is a copyright infringement case. Plagiarism is not an issue. ---
**Author:** ![Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Go_Arachnid_Laser_1)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2019, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katy-perry-dr-luke-max-martin-et-al-plagiarists/837854/53 "2019-08-02T04:14:43Z")
> [@AlsoNamedBort](#): > > Maybe I’m misunderstanding, but I have no idea what the “whoop whoop whoop” is you’re referring to. Right, so you know where there’s background singers gong “Hey! Hey! Hey!” in Dark Horse, perticularly in the rapped segment? [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/0KSOMA3QBU0/maxresdefault.jpg "Katy Perry - Dark Horse ft. Juicy J") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KSOMA3QBU0&t=143) Same thing happens with Joyful Noise. blob:[https://youtu.be/QCcW-guAs\_s?t=37](https://youtu.be/QCcW-guAs_s?t=37) I don’t know if there’s a name for this. I call it “Whooping”. And again, going “Hey!” is not original in either song. But coincidences are starting to pile up here. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2019, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katy-perry-dr-luke-max-martin-et-al-plagiarists/837854/54 "2019-08-02T10:39:25Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > Cite? Your link doesn’t discuss plagiarism. Well, OP? Are you capable of addressing this? ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2019, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katy-perry-dr-luke-max-martin-et-al-plagiarists/837854/55 "2019-08-02T10:41:48Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > [Crime pays](https://apnews.com/7ce2c30fc5214bbc9bd145bf00f35490): So she’ll use the money she got from this crime to fight being held responsible for this crime. > > What an awesome justice system the US has! None of what you describe or quote is a “crime”. ---
**Author:** ![Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Go_Arachnid_Laser_1)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2019, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katy-perry-dr-luke-max-martin-et-al-plagiarists/837854/56 "2019-08-02T11:05:16Z")
> [@Go\_Arachnid\_Laser](#): > > And again, going “Hey!” is not original in either song. But coincidences are starting to pile up here. And now that I’ve linked those parts of the song, I just noticed a fourth “coincidence”. The part in Dark Horse where they suddenly lower Juicy J’s pitch when he says "There’s no going back? Well, guess who also ends up a phrase by doing exactly that. Again, I’m sure there’s hundreds of songs using that particular audio trick… but there you go. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2019, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katy-perry-dr-luke-max-martin-et-al-plagiarists/837854/57 "2019-08-02T11:18:39Z")
> [@Go\_Arachnid\_Laser](#): > > And now that I’ve linked those parts of the song, I just noticed a fourth “coincidence”. The part in Dark Horse where they suddenly lower Juicy J’s pitch when he says "There’s no going back? Well, guess who also ends up a phrase by doing exactly that. > > Again, I’m sure there’s hundreds of songs using that particular audio trick… but there you go. Try comparing a couple of blues songs and see how you get on. ---
**Author:** ![Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Go_Arachnid_Laser_1)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2019, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katy-perry-dr-luke-max-martin-et-al-plagiarists/837854/58 "2019-08-02T11:26:39Z")
> [@Richard\_Pearse](#): > > Try comparing a couple of blues songs and see how you get on. Oh, bluesmen copied each other all the time. Like constantly. And they were basically just a guy and a guitar, and still kept copying musical tricks from each other. You… you think they all made so much similar stuff independently? That it all was a giant coincidence? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2019, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katy-perry-dr-luke-max-martin-et-al-plagiarists/837854/59 "2019-08-02T11:45:30Z")
> [@Go\_Arachnid\_Laser](#): > > Oh, bluesmen copied each other all the time. Like constantly. And they were basically just a guy and a guitar, and still kept copying musical tricks from each other. > > You… you think they all made so much similar stuff independently? That it all was a giant coincidence? The question is what parts of a song are considered the protected creative element and what parts are considered the common tools of music craft and genre. In the link given above to Rick Beato’s Vlog, he puts forth the common belief that “the song,” that is, the thing you can’t copy, is the melody and lyrics. In this case, the plaintiff’s song has no melody, because it’s a rap, so the only thing that’s left is the lyrics, which’s aren’t similar to the accused work. This is actually a big deal in the music world—where do you draw the line and still give songmakers enough leeway to participate in the market for new songs and use musical elements in the ways that they’re accustomed. ---
**Author:** ![Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Go_Arachnid_Laser_1)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2019, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katy-perry-dr-luke-max-martin-et-al-plagiarists/837854/60 "2019-08-02T11:52:24Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > The question is what parts of a song are considered the protected creative element and what parts are considered the common tools of music craft and genre. > > In the link given above to Rick Beato’s Vlog, he puts forth the common belief that “the song,” that is, the thing you can’t copy, is the melody and lyrics. > > In this case, the plaintiff’s song has no melody, because it’s a rap, so the only thing that’s left is the lyrics, which’s aren’t similar to the accused work. > > This is actually a big deal in the music world—where do you draw the line and still give songmakers enough leeway to participate in the market for new songs and use musical elements in the ways that they’re accustomed. Which is a very interesting discussion. Should Doctor Luke or Max Martin or whoever have the right to take the beat and several elements from Joyful Noise and do a song with them? That’s a great subject. But not the point I was making. The point I was arguing was in whether they did take those elements, or whether it’s all a coincidence, like they claimed it to be in court. And I’m saying, there are more common points than just the beat, making it a simple coincidence impossible. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katy-perry-dr-luke-max-martin-et-al-plagiarists/837854.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katy-perry-dr-luke-max-martin-et-al-plagiarists/837854.md?page=4)