# Katy Perry, Dr. Luke, Max Martin (et al.) = plagiarists **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 30, 2019, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katy-perry-dr-luke-max-martin-et-al-plagiarists/837854 "2019-07-30T03:19:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2019, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katy-perry-dr-luke-max-martin-et-al-plagiarists/837854/121 "2019-08-04T16:29:34Z")
> [@Go\_Arachnid\_Laser](#): > > Sure. There’s a similar riff? Nothing to it. Coincidences happen. > > ‘Hey!’ vocal percussion? Plenty songs do that. > > “Y’all know what it is”? At least a dozen songs start the same. > > “There’s no going back” with a sudden pitch drop? Pfff. I could name you several songs doing that too. > > So, tell me. At what point would you start considering something a bit too coincidental? I’ve said. If they were related to each other in some way, rather than just being random elements scattered about. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2019, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katy-perry-dr-luke-max-martin-et-al-plagiarists/837854/122 "2019-08-04T16:29:38Z")
> [@Go\_Arachnid\_Laser](#): > > Sure. There’s a similar riff? Nothing to it. Coincidences happen. > > ‘Hey!’ vocal percussion? Plenty songs do that. > > “Y’all know what it is”? At least a dozen songs start the same. > > “There’s no going back” with a sudden pitch drop? Pfff. I could name you several songs doing that too. > > So, tell me. At what point would you start considering something a bit too coincidental? It doesn’t matter whether it’s coincidental or not. You are allowed to reuse the common elements of a musical genre. There wouldn’t be any such thing as a genre if you couldn’t. To make a song in a genre you are intentionally using elements common to that genre. The point isn’t whether it’s coincidental or intentional. The point is that no one can own a genre. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2019, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katy-perry-dr-luke-max-martin-et-al-plagiarists/837854/123 "2019-08-04T16:51:37Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > It doesn’t matter whether it’s coincidental or not. You are allowed to reuse the common elements of a musical genre. There wouldn’t be any such thing as a genre if you couldn’t. To make a song in a genre you are intentionally using elements common to that genre. The point isn’t whether it’s coincidental or intentional. The point is that no one can own a genre. To be fair, I think **Go\_Arachnid\_Laser** is arguing not that the coincidence in minor elements violates copyright, but that it is evidence that Dark Horse is intentionally copying the synth riff, and _that_ would violate copyright. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2019, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katy-perry-dr-luke-max-martin-et-al-plagiarists/837854/124 "2019-08-04T17:21:04Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > To be fair, I think **Go\_Arachnid\_Laser** is arguing not that the coincidence in minor elements violates copyright, but that it is evidence that Dark Horse is intentionally copying the synth riff, and _that_ would violate copyright. But that only infringes a copyright if that synth riff by itself is protectable expression. That’s what I’m trying to get folks to see here—we never reach the question of whether actual copying took place if we can’t specifically answer the question of what exactly about the plaintiff’s work is protectable? ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2019, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katy-perry-dr-luke-max-martin-et-al-plagiarists/837854/125 "2019-08-04T17:32:48Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > But that only infringes a copyright if that synth riff by itself is protectable expression. That’s what I’m trying to get folks to see here—we never reach the question of whether actual copying took place if we can’t specifically answer the question of what exactly about the plaintiff’s work is protectable? I don’t disagree, but it would seem that the courts do. Between this and Blurred Lines, and numerous cases being settled in spite of likely being without legal merit, it seems like it’s becoming part of the cost of being a pop star to pay off random people claiming that you’ve ripped off their obscure song that you’ve never heard in your life. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2019, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katy-perry-dr-luke-max-martin-et-al-plagiarists/837854/126 "2019-08-04T18:19:52Z")
OK, I knew there was something nagging me about this case, and I’ve finally picked out what it is: The six notes in common between these two songs are, in fact, the first six notes of “Jolly Old St. Nicholas”. So just who was copying riffs, here? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2019, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katy-perry-dr-luke-max-martin-et-al-plagiarists/837854/127 "2019-08-05T22:47:13Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > OK, I knew there was something nagging me about this case, and I’ve finally picked out what it is: The six notes in common between these two songs are, in fact, the first six notes of “Jolly Old St. Nicholas”. So just who was copying riffs, here? It’s a lot more than just that. Take a look at this analysis [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/0ytoUuO-qvg/maxresdefault.jpg "Why the Katy Perry/Flame lawsuit makes no sense") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ytoUuO-qvg) These songs are not similar enough to support infringement. And what is similar about them isn’t original. It’s just common musical elements. This musicologist totally snowjobbed the jury. Congress should really take away jury trials in technical cases like this. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2019, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katy-perry-dr-luke-max-martin-et-al-plagiarists/837854/128 "2019-08-05T23:28:30Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > OK, I knew there was something nagging me about this case, and I’ve finally picked out what it is: The six notes in common between these two songs are, in fact, the first six notes of “Jolly Old St. Nicholas”. So just who was copying riffs, here? You just realized this, out of the blue? It just came to you in a flash? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2019, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katy-perry-dr-luke-max-martin-et-al-plagiarists/837854/129 "2019-08-07T02:56:45Z")
> [@Go\_Arachnid\_Laser](#): > > Right. So if you, for instance, made a song, and some rapper or EDM Dj took a riff from it and made another song with it, without giving you any credit, let alone any part of the royalties, you would be fine with that. If what they took was equivalent to what Perry et al “took”? I’d be perfectly fine with that. I mean it all depends on how much they’ve taken or sampled. Bits and pieces? No problem. Bigger slices? I might want a small share of the credits. Really big pieces would mean a bigger share. > [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Sasmpling is theft; this was settled in the late '80s/early '90s. In most cases that are settled We need to reopen this discussion. The law has gone too far here. We could never get a masterpiece like Paul’s Boutique today with the current laws. It’s at the point where it hampers creativity. > [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > That’s a terrible metric to use to determine whether or not something is okay; would you like a list of things that were or have been going on for hundreds or thousands of years that are objectionable today? Not really, no. I think it’s been a great thing that this has been happening for thousands of years. It’s a good thing. > [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Go dig up Greg Ham and ask him about that kind of thing. Don’t really care what Greg Ham thinks. Or would’ve thought. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2019, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katy-perry-dr-luke-max-martin-et-al-plagiarists/837854/130 "2019-08-07T03:20:55Z")
> [@Yookeroo](#): > > We need to reopen this discussion. The law has gone too far here. We could never get a masterpiece like Paul’s Boutique today with the current laws. It’s at the point where it hampers creativity. It only hampers the creativity of people who want to steal other people’s copyrighted creative works. There’s more music being made today than ever before, just less of the kind where thieves profit quite as much as you’d like. ---
**Author:** ![Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Go_Arachnid_Laser_1)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2019, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katy-perry-dr-luke-max-martin-et-al-plagiarists/837854/131 "2019-08-07T08:06:28Z")
> [@Yookeroo](#): > > We need to reopen this discussion. The law has gone too far here. We could never get a masterpiece like Paul’s Boutique today with the current laws. It’s at the point where it hampers creativity. I don’t think that the laws themselves changed. All the samples the Dust Brothers used were legally cleared. What has changed are the industry rates. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2019, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katy-perry-dr-luke-max-martin-et-al-plagiarists/837854/132 "2019-08-07T15:11:42Z")
But here we have someone who, by that standard, stole someone else’s work, who is then suing yet another person for stealing from them. If you’re upset with Katy Perry selling a song she didn’t write, then you should be even more upset with Marcus Grey suing over a song he didn’t write. The fact is, there are only so many possible six-note sequences, and there are an awful lot of songs. If sharing six notes is too much, then it’s impossible to write any new songs at all. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2019, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katy-perry-dr-luke-max-martin-et-al-plagiarists/837854/133 "2019-08-07T15:30:06Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > If sharing six notes is too much, then it’s impossible to write any new songs at all. Which is clearly not the case. ---
**Author:** ![Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Go_Arachnid_Laser_1)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2019, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katy-perry-dr-luke-max-martin-et-al-plagiarists/837854/134 "2019-08-07T16:46:37Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > The fact is, there are only so many possible six-note sequences, and there are an awful lot of songs. If sharing six notes is too much, then it’s impossible to write any new songs at all. There’s more to a tune than it being a bunch of notes strung together. They have to have a rhythm, a tempo, a pitch and so on. That allows you to play really complex melodies with a couple of notes. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2019, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katy-perry-dr-luke-max-martin-et-al-plagiarists/837854/135 "2019-08-07T16:49:22Z")
And so clearly sharing six notes isn’t too much. ---
**Author:** ![Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Go_Arachnid_Laser_1)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2019, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katy-perry-dr-luke-max-martin-et-al-plagiarists/837854/136 "2019-08-07T16:55:22Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > And so clearly sharing six notes isn’t too much. Of course not. That wasn’t the ruling at all, to begin with. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2019, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katy-perry-dr-luke-max-martin-et-al-plagiarists/837854/137 "2019-08-07T18:28:17Z")
Why let facts stand in the way of an argument, tho, amirite? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2019, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katy-perry-dr-luke-max-martin-et-al-plagiarists/837854/138 "2019-08-07T19:02:33Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Why let facts stand in the way of an argument, tho, amirite? Says the man who thinks copyright infringement is theft. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2019, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katy-perry-dr-luke-max-martin-et-al-plagiarists/837854/139 "2019-08-07T19:30:51Z")
> [@Go\_Arachnid\_Laser](#): > > Of course not. That wasn’t the ruling at all, to begin with. The “ruling” as such was a verdict of liability for infringement by a jury. Jury verdicts usually don’t offer a very good guide to what the actual standards and principles of the law are. And if you look at the Adam Neely video I linked to before, it’s pretty damn clear that the plaintiff’s claimed work wasn’t original, not by a long shot. All this shows that these kinds of decisions should be matters of law for experts, not juries, do determine. ---
**Author:** ![Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Go_Arachnid_Laser_1)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2019, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katy-perry-dr-luke-max-martin-et-al-plagiarists/837854/140 "2019-08-07T19:43:26Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > And if you look at the Adam Neely video I linked to before, it’s pretty damn clear that the plaintiff’s claimed work wasn’t original, not by a long shot. I think that he proves that other works actually have the same notes. But as I said, there’s more to a tune than just the notes. Which means that Jolly Old Saint Nicholas actually sounds nothing like Dark Horse. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katy-perry-dr-luke-max-martin-et-al-plagiarists/837854.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/katy-perry-dr-luke-max-martin-et-al-plagiarists/837854.md?page=8)